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Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

reuters.com

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Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#101

Post by The_Colonel »

epolanski wrote: post #98
The_Colonel wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The way I see it, western countries and US should take a clear stand about Taiwanese statehood, and Taiwan needs to do it first on their own in order for the rest of the world to take a stand, as they legally still lay claim on the entirety of China (and beyond). Isn't it ironic that you're accusing others of warmongering, but then suggest an action which would almost certainly provoke a war? (China has been pretty…

This doesn't change the fact that the Taiwanese status is de jure unresolved and will constitute a never ending basis for conflict and tension. This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of autonomy, which no one, let alone Taiwanese people ever trust or by unilateral statehood declaration (which has no support internationally, least of all in US since…

> This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of autonomy

You mean like the huge degrees of autonomy Hong Kong enjoys? That seems like such a huge strategic blunder by Xi. Instead of making it a positive example for Taiwan to follow, they made it a strong deterrent to a peaceful integration.

> which has no support internationally

It has no support internationally, because to get that support, you first need to declare sovereignty.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#102

Post by epolanski »

biotopia wrote: post #93
epolanski wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike this warmongering. Looking at the last 150 years, or even the most recent decades, it's us having a history of invading countries or conducting military operations to support different parties. Yet, we are so blind of that. China has been mostly on the receiving stick (by European countries as well), not the offending one. Even when it comes to Vietnam or Korea it has been us who meddled in those int…

You can't be serious, China is actively supplying Russia's war against Ukraine and rest of Europe, with purchases and military supplies. https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/China-Russia-trade-top... https://www.politico.eu/article/china-firms-russia-body-armo...

I don't want to abuse whataboutism, but you're aware that besides actively engaging in multiple wars and international military actions we also support Ukrainian war effort directly right?

You're suffering of the usual American exceptionalism, where US is allowed to overthrow governments at will, conduct military actions, decide to support whatever side (sometimes arming both), but other countries cannot.

Just to point out, I obviously condone the military actions in Ukraine (especially since I am a Pole of Ukrainian descent), but I obviously also condoned overthrowing Libyan government or the Iraqi military intervention too and many other despicable actions our governments have conducted in the last decades.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#103

Post by pasc1878 »

cjfd wrote: post #48
ahoka wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It still spreads your opponents resources thinner, from a strictly game theory perspective.

Meh, from a strict game theory perspective restricting trade makes both sides poorer. You know, both parties in a trading contract only sign on the dotted line if both are advantaged by it.

It depends what the costs and benefits are - if in pure money then yes both sides poorer.

But if you take into account social and other freedoms boosting China (and Russia) does not help the average Westerner as their freedoms would tend to reduce to mach China.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#104

Post by insane_dreamer »

holoduke wrote: post #2

I wonder if these actions will have the opposite effect. China will only more invest into producing their own. And I think we should not underestimate them. Could be good for competition though.

> China will only more invest into producing their own

they will anyway but at least they'll have less opportunity to "obtain" technology from ASML to aid them in their efforts

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#105

Post by holografix »

epolanski wrote: post #85
SkyMarshal wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though it's not only about delaying China so the US can catch up in semiconductors, but also about trying to delay China so that they miss their window of opportunity to invade Taiwan. Xi's aim is to reunify Taiwan with the mainland sometime in the 2020s. The US is trying to deter that using a comprehensive deterrence strategy - military, diplomatic, economic. Hence new US bases in northern Philippines, US suppo…

I really dislike this warmongering. Looking at the last 150 years, or even the most recent decades, it's us having a history of invading countries or conducting military operations to support different parties. Yet, we are so blind of that. China has been mostly on the receiving stick (by European countries as well), not the offending one. Even when it comes to Vietnam or Korea it has been us who meddled in those int…

Have you heard of Tibet? Nice place to holiday.

Or would you like a 6 month all inclusive holiday in a Uyghur re-education camp?

Or would you prefer an island getaway? There’s a few brand new ones in South East Asia the Chinese are building on coral reefs in order to erect military bullying outposts and exert pressure on small SEA countries.

If you’re from a developing nation you can finance jyour corrupt infrastructure project with the Chinese and have some of your key infra under their control while you sink the country into unpayable debt.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#106

Post by [deleted] »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #60
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan is subject to the same equipment dependencies as China. They don’t make the machines, they import them from the Americans, Dutch, and Germans. If China took over Taiwan, they might be able to obtain Salem great semiconductor engineers (but they could just hire them already on work visas), maybe some plans for the next 2 or 3 years on chips they can’t fab without western equipment, but that’s it. Economically,…

As if the ASML machines were all that is needed for making cutting edge semiconductors. Why TSMC is in Taiwan and not in Denmark then?

[deleted]

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#107

Post by epolanski »

holografix wrote: post #105
epolanski wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really dislike this warmongering. Looking at the last 150 years, or even the most recent decades, it's us having a history of invading countries or conducting military operations to support different parties. Yet, we are so blind of that. China has been mostly on the receiving stick (by European countries as well), not the offending one. Even when it comes to Vietnam or Korea it has been us who meddled in those int…

Have you heard of Tibet? Nice place to holiday. Or would you like a 6 month all inclusive holiday in a Uyghur re-education camp? Or would you prefer an island getaway? There’s a few brand new ones in South East Asia the Chinese are building on coral reefs in order to erect military bullying outposts and exert pressure on small SEA countries. If you’re from a developing nation you can finance jyour corrupt infrastruct…

Not sure what is the point you're trying to make.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#108

Post by The_Colonel »

epolanski wrote: post #102
biotopia wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't be serious, China is actively supplying Russia's war against Ukraine and rest of Europe, with purchases and military supplies. https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Trade/China-Russia-trade-top... https://www.politico.eu/article/china-firms-russia-body-armo...

I don't want to abuse whataboutism, but you're aware that besides actively engaging in multiple wars and international military actions we also support Ukrainian war effort directly right? You're suffering of the usual American exceptionalism, where US is allowed to overthrow governments at will, conduct military actions, decide to support whatever side (sometimes arming both), but other countries cannot. Just to poi…

> I obviously condone the military actions in Ukraine (especially since I am a Pole of Ukrainian descent)

I don't want to be too adversarial, but don't you feel a bit hypocritical by supporting Ukraine to preserve its sovereignty in face of a larger, strongly authoritarian neighbor, but arguing for Taiwanese to simply give up their own?

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#109

Post by epolanski »

The_Colonel wrote: post #101
epolanski wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't change the fact that the Taiwanese status is de jure unresolved and will constitute a never ending basis for conflict and tension. This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of autonomy, which no one, let alone Taiwanese people ever trust or by unilateral statehood declaration (which has no support internationally, least of all in US since…

> This tension can only be relieved by de jure integrating Taiwan in Chinese statehood under very huge degrees of autonomy You mean like the huge degrees of autonomy Hong Kong enjoys? That seems like such a huge strategic blunder by Xi. Instead of making it a positive example for Taiwan to follow, they made it a strong deterrent to a peaceful integration. > which has no support internationally It has no support inter…

HK is a bit different. It was a land lease and the Britons negotiated for a 50 year transition period before HK was fully assimilated.

I fully agree with your conclusion and spirit though which is why I said that Taiwan has no reason for any kind of trust for a peaceful integration with the PRC.

Re: Beijing criticises Netherlands’ move to block ASML exports to China

#110

Post by elzbardico »

This is completely idiotic policy for Netherland's own interest. They are closing themselves from a huge market, just to satisfy the misguided ideas from the neocon think-tank spawns that infected both the last and the current US administration.

It won't fucking work. Sanctions only work when targeted against weak countries, where they can have a devastating impact. Against a country like China, they just protect nascent industries. Yeah, profits are gonna suck for a while, investors are screaming bloody murder, but in countries like China, they don't care as much about what their wall street thinks, and investors understand that they sometimes are going to lose, something which became anathema in the west.

We are not in heydays of early 2000's globalism. Nation-States are not going anywhere and strategical national concerns became fashionable again. No force can stop it.

What is the US going to do? preemptively attack china? Have anyone thought about the logistical nightmare this entails? the fucking tragedy for supply chains and global commerce? How exactly the US thinks it is going to send a naval expeditionary force to south china sea? How those nice and expensive carrier groups pretend to survive the barrage of missiles, especially hypersonic ones? And then what? Hunker down in Taiwan while engaging in a decades long attrition war against China. Turning ourselves into a war economy so we can produce the mind-boggling amounts of ammo this would entails? and then to defend exactly what? the sacred ruins of bombed TSMC factories? Does those morons in the Pentagon and the State Department ever heard about the fact that wars cost money, and attrition wars even more, and that printing money by itself is not enough, because digits on a computer don't win wars, but raw steel, diesel and chips do?

The only way of dealing with China is keeping them dependent on western technology, leveraging the west's advantage not only in lithography, but also on optics and software to ensure that there's no economical way for them to develop a competing industry, simply because there will be no reason for China's industrial behemoths to shoot themselves on the foot by buying native chip technology that is worse and more expensive.

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