"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends." • Hacker News Board

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#101

Post by rgoddard » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:37 PM UTC

adam-a wrote: post #89

nickik wrote: post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

I'm from the UK and I have the same reaction to most of these stories. Can it really be that bad? Is the American school system so dramatically different? I went to a high school which was not split by grade. I was called a "geek" or "boffin" (basically the regional equivalent of nerd) because I was often top of the class, or made fun of because I have mild scoliosis. I managed to keep a good group of friends though…

One of the big differences is just the size of the schools. I was in Ireland for 8th and 9th grade. The school I went to consisted of grades 6th-12th with a total of around 300 students, with 48 kids in my grade. My graduation class from high school back in the US was around 600. My high school consisted of 10th-12th grade with around 1800 students total. This difference in size makes a huge impact in the different cultures that have evolved in the different school systems.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#102

Post by kitsune_ » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:38 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

I'm from Switzerland and the reality that you miss is that a lot of students will be thrown into the Realschule (lowest tier of secondary education in Switzerland) for a variety of reasons, including spiteful teachers or foreign parents who fail to understand the magnitude of this decision. Often the path is already being set at the Kindergarten age with inept teachers who are unable to properly educate foreign speaking pupils. From then on it's a direct path to the Realschule and later a string of two or three failed attempts at getting a professional education (as a semi-skilled cook, hair stylist, whatever)

My brother was sent to the Realschule because of a primary teacher who habitually hit the pupils he hated - he was a sadistic tyrant.

Roughly a decade later, My brother graduated in law and is now on path of becoming a very successful (and rich) international arbitration specialist.

Now obviously, not everyone will be able to turn the tide.

Another reality you seem to ignore is the fact that even intelligent people can be rowdy assholes.

My Gymnasium (high school) class was filled with them. They smoked blunts all day, lighted up books in front of the teachers, even brought some teachers to tears, they bullied kids and so on. They were very excellent students and didn't have to learn for exams.

As an introverted nerd this had the following effect on me: In order to fit in I started to smoke joints myself and missed 50% of the last year. I didn't have problems getting good grades so I didn't prepare for the Matura. In hindsight it was also dumb luck, not just my ingenuity that made me pass the Matura with good grades still. While I was still introverted, it helped ease tensions and I made a couple of good friends in the process.

In conclusion, from personal experience the Swiss education system has deep flaws.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#103

Post by anon_d » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:39 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #72

abraxasz wrote: post #60

I like the article, a lot. But I have some reserve with the advice given. In my experience, many people would actually be glad to hangout with someone weird if he gives them some time to get used to it, and take it easy on the weirdness at first. I consider myself weird (my weirdness is that I mostly don't give a shit about conventional thinking and politically correct things. I just love a good argument, to the poin…

I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :) (Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.) Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of socia…

I was home schooled, and I believe it did hinder me socially. What you say about social interaction outside the home is true, but it's still not all that much.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#104

Post by dclowd9901 » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:43 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

Why does every post on here need someone coming in explaining how it's wrong in some way.

It's not only disingenuous, but outright wrong to assume the author was saying "be weird for the sake of being weird." He's saying he is weird, and that's OK, just he won't see a lot of good in it in high school.

You're acting like he's advocating becoming a hipster, a straw man you invented.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#105

Post by cobrausn » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:47 PM UTC

anon_d wrote: post #103

js2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you right up to that part about not homeschooling your kids (homeschool dad here). But I'll let it go since I think you may just be trying to provoke an argument. :) (Unless you've homeschooled, I don't think you have any idea how much social interaction homeschool kids can get; we don't just sit at home all day.) Edit: I see comments below on homeschooling and from homeschoolers. Our kids get a ton of socia…

I was home schooled, and I believe it did hinder me socially. What you say about social interaction outside the home is true, but it's still not all that much.

One of the most well-adjusted 'kids' I ever met was 18, starting college, and came from a home-school environment. I, on the other hand, went to 'normal' school and was a fairly typical 'weirdo'. By the end of high school I had no friends left at the school and couldn't wait to join the navy and get the hell out of there. It was the navy that finally got the social akwardness out of me, not school. If anything, high school seemed to make it worse - the longer I was away, the better I got.

Different things work for different people. Some people work very well under a homeschooled routine. Others do not. Do not tie your kid to one or the other for the sake of your ideology - go with what works for them. Experiment if need be.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#106

Post by eru » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:56 PM UTC

ef4 wrote: post #92

jenius wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I understand your point of view based on this one observation, I think this is a terrible idea if you look at the big picture. Whether they get bullied or not, high school is an extremely important time for kids to gain social skills and learn how to deal with people. Dealing with people is one of the most important skills you can have, period. And that often means dealing with people that are being dicks, and…

The thing is: school is nothing like the real world. It teaches you how to deal with school. School is a very weird, twisted little society where none of the work has any real point, there's no source of purpose other than pure social approval, and everybody is either the same age or an authority figure. The strategies you use for dealing with difficult people in the real world are completely different from what you…

> [...] and everybody is either the same age or an authority figure.

At least nominally. Plenty of teachers turn into laughing stock.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#107

Post by endersshadow » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:58 PM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #104

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #68

I'm about as asocial and celebratory of diversity as they come, and I love this essay, especially the conversational style. But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry. In school people clan and desperately look for some identity to copy. This leads to all the terrible social behavior you see in most secondary and high school in the U.S. Somebody calling you "weird" can really be a badge of ho…

Why does every post on here need someone coming in explaining how it's wrong in some way. It's not only disingenuous, but outright wrong to assume the author was saying "be weird for the sake of being weird." He's saying he is weird, and that's OK, just he won't see a lot of good in it in high school. You're acting like he's advocating becoming a hipster, a straw man you invented.

Did you come in looking for a fight? Daniel clearly stated that he thought the argument was a good one, but it's too easy to take the extreme from the headline (or miss the point of the essay entirely), and say that being "weird" is good in and of itself. It's not, clearly. What he's saying is, find your passion and damn the social torpedoes, because it'll all work out in the end.

Daniel's point was that being "weird" for the sake of it is not really the point of the essay. He was not creating any type of straw man. You read it too fast or not at all if you think he was.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#108

Post by tehayj » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 3:59 PM UTC

It is not about you or them being weird, it is about being real. If you are real you will get respect for that no matter what you are. You might not get respect from the "cool" group or the "geek" group but you will get respect from all those who would like to be like you but are not because they try to fit in.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#109

Post by kevinalexbrown » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:01 PM UTC

I really identified with the article, and the author seems to have taken a reasonable course.

But I would not call all groups with social norms that differ from you 'losers' that 'lost the battle to be themselves.' The author's transformation seems like it had more to do with finding somewhere he fit the social norms than realizing any group that didn't want him was full of losers with no personality. After all, the author found a group in like-minded anime fanatics, and his group has its own norms regarding conversation:

The topics change -- what cars are best, what sports are better than other sports, what teams are better than other teams, what shows are better than other shows (but never politics or religion -- something you learn really fast in a gym is to never bring up the two topics most likely to incite violence in a building filled with metal bars and heavy plates).

Someone who walked in talking about the Talmud all the time probably wouldn't fit in.

And that's fine. It would just be sad if the kid, like a lot of nerds I've seen, unwittingly developed his own social norms, but was just as heart-breakingly rigid about them as the kids in his school.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#110

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 4:01 PM UTC

evincarofautumn wrote: post #97

Lockyy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Perfectly normal within friends." What is perfectly normal within friends can still be unwanted, even if it was okay at first. It's why I don't like to encourage jokey insults like this any more. Sure at first I was okay with homophobic comments, but after a while it turns from being playful with friends into hurtful and annoying. I definitely agree with StavrosK, it does feel very off to me.

Well, yes. I did find the comment in extremely poor taste, but I also don’t pretend to have enough information to assess it further. Nothing to do but suspend judgement and give a measured response.

Well, if a gay friend of mine doesn't mind "even the gay gets laid more than me", it still doesn't mean I'll go around saying it in public or online, I don't have the relationship I have with my friend with everyone.

Anyway, I was just checking to see if that was a generally accepted statement just because the word "furry" was there rather than something else, or if I was missing something.