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Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

forrestheller.com

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Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#101
post #98

The ariicle was a lot of fun however I felt it missed a important aspect about the respective computers. IO channels. I don't know about the USB charge controllers. But the AGC as a flight computer had a bunch of inputs and outputs. Does a Richtek RT7205 have enough IO?

The most powerful chip in the list (Cypress CYPD4126) has 30x general purpose I/O pins.[1]

AFAIK, this is typical of USB controller chips, which generally have about 20-30 I/O pins, but I’m sure there are outliers.

The AGC seems to have four 16-bit input registers, and five 16-bit output registers[2], for a total of 144 I/O pins total.

[1] https://ta.infinity-component.com/datasheet/9c-CYPD4126-40LQ...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer#Other...

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#102
post #92
post #16

> Apollo 11 spacecraft contains 4 computers Analog computers don't get the respect they deserve. There's one more computer, the FCC. The Flight Control Computer is an analog computer in the Saturn V that controlled the rocket gimbals. It's a two-foot cylinder weighing almost 100 pounds.

i think it's (unintentionally) misleading to describe analog 'computers' as 'computers'. what distinguishes digital computers from other digital hardware is that they're turing-complete (if given access to enough memory), and there isn't any similar notion in the analog domain the only reason they have the same name is that they were both originally built to replace people cranking out calculations on mechanical desk…

I wonder why you can't make a turing complete analog computer using feedback loops.

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#103

Can you run Doom on a USB-C charger? Did anyone manage to?

I feel like I/O would be the real pain point there. I suppose if you throw out performance you could forward X/VNC/whatever over serial (possibly with TCP/IP in the middle; SLIP is ugly but so flexible), but that's unlikely to be playable.

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#104
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think it's (unintentionally) misleading to describe analog 'computers' as 'computers'. what distinguishes digital computers from other digital hardware is that they're turing-complete (if given access to enough memory), and there isn't any similar notion in the analog domain the only reason they have the same name is that they were both originally built to replace people cranking out calculations on mechanical desk…

I wonder why you can't make a turing complete analog computer using feedback loops.

You can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_purpose_analog_compute...

There is still active research in the area, eg. https://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/~bournez/i.php?n=Main.Publi...

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#105

Pretty much all USB chips have a fully programmable CPU when you go into the data sheets. It feels silly for simple hid or charging devices but basic microcontrollers are cheap and actually save costs compared to asics.

Yeesh. Beware the random wall wart I guess.

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why you can't make a turing complete analog computer using feedback loops.

You can: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_purpose_analog_compute... There is still active research in the area, eg. https://www.lix.polytechnique.fr/~bournez/i.php?n=Main.Publi...

a universal turing machine is a particular machine which can simulate all other turing machines. the gpac, by contrast, is a family of machines: all machines built out of such-and-such a set of parts

you can't simulate an 11-integrator general-purpose analog computer or other differential analyzer with a 10-integrator differential analyzer, and you can't simulate a differential analyzer with 0.1% error on a (more typical) differential analyzer with 1% error, unless it's 100× as large (assuming the error is gaussian)

the ongoing research in the area is of course very interesting but a lot of it relies on an abstraction of the actual differential-analyzer problem in which precision is infinite and error is zero

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#108

Pretty much all USB chips have a fully programmable CPU when you go into the data sheets. It feels silly for simple hid or charging devices but basic microcontrollers are cheap and actually save costs compared to asics.

I would also argue that this is another example of software eating the world. The role of the electrical engineer is diminished day by day.

the role of the electrical engineer who doesn't know a thing about programming is diminished day by day*

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#109
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They both do the same thing compute an output from given inputs. So they are properly distinguished from each other on how they do the computing. They both deserve the name 'computer'.

only in the same sense that a machinist's micrometer, an optical telescope, an analog television set, an acoustic guitar, a letterpress printing press, a car's manual transmission, a fountain pen, a nomogram, and a transistor also 'compute an output from given inputs' do you want to call them all 'computers' now?

The arithmetic circuits alone, like adders, multipliers etc., regardless if they are mechanical or electronic, analog or digital, should not be called computers.

When the arithmetic circuits, i.e. the "central arithmetical part", as called by von Neumann, are coupled with a "central control part", as called by von Neumann, i.e. with a sequencer that is connected in a feedback loop with the arithmetic part, so that the computation results can modify the sequence of computations, then this device must be named as a "computer", regardless whether the computations are done with analog circuits or with digital circuits.

What defines a computer (according to the definition already given by von Neumann, which is the right definition in my opinion) is closing the feedback loop between the arithmetic part and the control part, which raises the order of the system in comparison with a simple finite state automaton, not how those parts are implemented.

The control part must be discrete, i.e. digital, but the arithmetic part can be completely analog. Closing the feedback loop, i.e. the conditional jumps executed by the control part, can be done with analog comparators that provide the predicates tested by the conditional jumps. The state of an analog arithmetic part uses capacitors, inductors or analog integrators, instead of digital registers.

Several decades ago, I had to debug an analog computer during its installation process, before functioning for the first time. That was in a metallurgic plant, and the analog computer provided outputs that controlled the torques of a group of multi-megawatt DC electric motors. The formulae used in the analog computations were very complex, with a large number of adders, multipliers, integrators, square root circuits and so on, which combined inputs from many sensors.

That analog computer (made with op amps) performed a sequence of computations much more complex than the algorithms that were executed on an Intel 8080, which controlled various on-off execution elements of the system, like relays and hydraulic valves and the induction motors that powered some pumps.

The main reason why such analog computers have become obsolete is the difficulty of ensuring that the accuracy of their computations will not change due to aging and due to temperature variations. Making analog computers that are insensitive to aging and temperature raises their cost much above modern digital microcontrollers.

Re: Apollo 11 vs. USB-C Chargers (2020)

#110
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

only in the same sense that a machinist's micrometer, an optical telescope, an analog television set, an acoustic guitar, a letterpress printing press, a car's manual transmission, a fountain pen, a nomogram, and a transistor also 'compute an output from given inputs' do you want to call them all 'computers' now?

What's wrong with that? They are. We can always make the finer distinction of "Von Neumann architecture inspired digital electronic computer" if you wish to exclude the examples you've given. After all, anything which transforms a particular input to a particular output in a consistent fashion could be considered a computer which implements a particular function. I would say - don't confuse the word's meaning with th…

This is the double-edged sword of deciding to widen (or narrow) the meaning of a term which already has a conventional meaning.

By doing so, you get to make a point—perhaps via analogy, perhaps via precision, perhaps via pedantry—which is illuminating for you but now confusing for your reader. And to explain yourself, you must swim upstream and redefine a term while simultaneously making a different point altogether.

Much has been written about jargon, but a primary benefit of jargon is the chance to create a domain-specific meaning without the baggage of dictionary-correct associations. It’s also why geeks can be bores at dinner parties.

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