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Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

drewdevault.com

101–110 of 159 posts

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#101
post #20

Watch Naomi Wu on YouTube. Look beyond her jarring aesthetic, and you’ll get to see the process of building something from idea to prototype and even production in China, specifically Shenzhen. It genuinely makes me happy that a place like that exists, but sad that there doesn’t seem to be any place like it anywhere else; certainly not in the west. If you wanted to build a 3D printer from scratch, they have what are…

Interesting. That sounds a lot like what Akihabara (in Japan) used to be before it became the over-commercialized geek-trap it is now.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#102
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yet, they can't make printers fast enough. I generally agree with your comments but I think you've accidentally brought up a really good point. Prusa would do well do improve on getting their new models out the door faster. The Mk3S was getting fairly long in the tooth before the Mk4 came out. The printer they introduced before that also suffered from a very long development cycle. This leads to lost sales in a…

What you've said is true, but it assumes the goal is money. If that's the measurement, then yes they should do that. I'm not him so I can't say for certain, but money doesn't seem to be Jo's end-goal.

I’m 100% in favor of money not always being the primary purpose of a business. That being said, you still have to be profitable (if even by a penny), or the business will cease to exist at some point. I hope there is enough of a niche for what Prusa wants to continue to do, but I’m not sure.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#103
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you took away is “cheap plastic from China” and that they should have gone for low cost, you haven’t paid enough attention while reading this article. It talks about building a better product and investing in the experience and ecosystem, which the chinese alternatives have done. We are about to witness the same thing happening to cars very soon.

It's been interesting seeing this happen in multiple industries. Hifi is one of them, companies like Topping, Fiio, etc.. make great products for a fraction of the cost of previously well-known Japanese or western companies and have the measurements to prove it. Robot vaccuum cleaners are the same, we went from irobot being the best to being eclipsed by companies like Roborock or Dreame (although given privacy issues…

> Fiio etc.. make great products for a fraction of the cost of previously well-known Japanese or western companies and have the measurements to prove it.

Ironically, most of the ADCs on the market are equalled or beat out by a $10 Apple USB-C-to-3.5mm dongle smaller than my pinkie finger, and the measurements prove it.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. For the price tag of a Prusa Mk4 you can get a Bambu X1 Carbon 3D which is, metric for metric, a better printer -- larger volume, 16 color prints, faster printing, better resolution, pretty much all stats. Go for Creality and you can get the K1 Max at $300 less than the Mk4 (currently on sale, so more like $400 less) which is even better, again, in every spec and comes with an ecosystem that Creality has…

You should know you can't just compare specs and stats and say the K1 Max is better. Print quality and reliability isn't something that shows up on a spec sheet, and Creality struggles here. Bambu is certainly a credible competitor though.

Honestly, as someone who's been in the 3d printing space for over a decade... Bambu Labs isn't a competitor to Prusa. There is no Prusa printer that is as fast, as reliable, produces the quality prints, as any printer from Bambu. I've used both extensively, the X1C since Kickstarter days, the Prusas for... just about ever. The only edge, the only objective property that Prusa holds over Bambu Labs is customization; Prusa gives away all the details you need to majorly modify their printers. Beyond that there just is no reason to buy a Prusa. Print quality on any of my Bambu printers was equal or better out of the box (minus one that had a warped bed, that was replaced for free) than any of my Prusa printers, even ones with extensive tuning. It's just a better product. Better design, better manufactur, better price, better quality output, better software (though I've migrated to Orcaslicer). Prusa has spent the last decade being the top of the pack, holding market share and stagnating. Now they've been dislodged, and I can't see any compelling reason for them to come back.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#105
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again I have to ask if you've ever used a Prusa, no really this time? Prusa users use Prusaslicer, not Cura. Printables.com often hosts gcode files that require no slicing at all by end users. These points completely aside -- do you think 3d printer novices are going to last long without learning a slicer? Is that really your assertion? Also, is installing Cura a "nightmare" ? So much explosive language!

Yes, I have used a Prusa, but I have mostly used Cura with it. The bulk of my experience with Prusas started with finding one at the local hackerspace, firing up Cura and finding a profile for it, getting it to work and never questioning this procedure again. I used Prusaslicer once or twice, but nevertheless, I cut my teeth on Cura so I used the tool I knew. Not that the comment you're replying to alleges that most…

> Yes, I have used a Prusa, but I have mostly used Cura with it.

You just deprived yourself of any claim to represent the "normal user".

> Not that the comment you're replying to alleges that most Prusa users are using Cura, for the record.

... which kind of shows that they do NOT, in any way, shape, or form, "have to deal with the nightmare of installing and configuring Cura". You're the one who chose to use the words "have to".

> this product design locks it into the enthusiast market, and most consumers don't want to deal with that overhead.

There is not now, nor will there ever be, a significant "non-enthusiast" market for these devices. "Consumers" do not want to dick around with them, and a cloud slicer has negligible impact on most of the dicking around.

> Clicking "print this" on a model catalogue,

How many people actually do that for most of their printing? Who would buy such a device only to use canned models? If I don't want to customize things, I can trivially buy them already made, usually with better quality. I will almost never do better by 3D printing them, at least not if I value my own time at even minimum wage.

I'd say 80 percent of the prints done by the several relatively diverse users in my household are either designed from scratch or significantly modified from whatever we found on the net.

> having it fire up a cloud slicer thing, and pressing "go" is a better user experience for a novice, plain and simple, and I'm sick of arguing with your enlightened enthusiast takes here.

I have a Prusa 3D printer and a Glowforge laser cutter. The Glowforge is a slick, trouble-free device in operation (or at least it will be until its tube inevitably fails). It demands much less tweaking than an FDM printer.

But the "cloud" aspect of the Glowforge user experience is SHARPLY INFERIOR to either connecting the Prusa to your computer or writing files to an SD card.

Even though they obviously put a lot of thought and work into making it as easy as possible, just getting the Glowforge onto the WiFi network and associated with your account is harder than installing the Prusa slicer and getting the printer running. In fact, although I don't claim to represent the average user either, I could probably compile and install Cura from source code with less effort... and I have never touched Cura before.

And now you have an untrustworthy remotely controlled device that can start fires. And if you have any secret designs of your own, you're out of luck. You have no guarantee that the feature set or workflow won't change under you at any time.

You also have Glowforge marketing chirping at you every time you use the damned thing. And you have the software not very subtly trying to push you to buy their overpriced materials. And, no, your average corporation can't keep itself from doing those things. If you adopt a model that drives your company toward obnoxious behavior, the smart money bets that your company will engage in obnoxious behavior, even if you claim it's "optional".

In the case of Glowforge, you also have no way to add your own features... and you have a brick if they ever decide to stop supporting you. I do understand that the the 3D printers you're talking about don't have that problem at the moment, but there will always be pressure on their makers to move in that direction. In fact, when customers complained at the beginning of the preorder period, Glowforge itself promised open source firmware, although not an entire tool chain, as a form of "brick-proofing". As far as I know they've totally failed to deliver open source for any of their own code, nor even enough information about the hardware to let anybody write their own. All they've done is bare minimum GPL compliance for upstream stuff.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#106
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all you took away is “cheap plastic from China” and that they should have gone for low cost, you haven’t paid enough attention while reading this article. It talks about building a better product and investing in the experience and ecosystem, which the chinese alternatives have done. We are about to witness the same thing happening to cars very soon.

Fine, I'll admit I am not always a careful reader. But, I did read it as: they should have diversified. I know from first hand experience that this is really expensive to do for a company. And, only possible when you can reduce costs in other ways, which China obviously has an advantage in the manufacturing realm. I think what I'm trying to say is that instead of diversifying, maybe their best bet is to make a really…

Prusa's big problem is that they stopped innovating. They plateaud on their current tech, and just made tiny incremental improvements, years apart. There was plenty of things they could have been working on, new technologies, massive speed increases, etc. Bambu Labs created a better product in all ways (but one; very hard to modify), and now there's just no reason to buy a Prusa. You'll be spending more for an objectively inferior product.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#107
post #42

A lot comes down to how people measure success. In a capitalist system, success is often measured as having the most bucks, be it deserved or undeserved, how they got them, or how many people were ripped off on the way doesn't matter. Measuring the success of open-source projects is more about how they managed to impact the world positively. How they make tasks easier, bring happiness, inspire people, build community…

You need to be profitable to remain alive as a company. I agree with you we shouldn't race to the bottom, but if there's room for Prusa to compete without compromising value, they should do that.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#108
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you give an absolute beginner an MK4 and an Ender 3, they're going to use the MK4 every time. It's vastly less effort to get started and the QC of one vs the other isn't even a competition. The actual market isn't Ender 3 vs Mk4. It's extremely hard to argue that Prusa printers represent a good value in any market segment in a post-Bambu world. >What makes them "much, much better" ? Initial cost of ownership and…

> The actual market isn't Ender 3 vs Mk4. Goalposts moved! > It's extremely hard to argue that Prusa printers represent a good value in any market segment in a post-Bambu world. I don't find it hard. > produce better prints Citation needed* > faster I've heard this is true, so let's roll with it! >multiple high end printers that I've dumped $2k+ into. You must mean high-end China, yeah? $2k doesn't sound like much wh…

>Goalposts moved!

I'm not the one who set that goalpost and I disagree with it because it's nonsensical. The market is not a binary between a $1000 Mk4 and a $200 Ender 3, period.

>You must mean high-end China, yeah? $2k doesn't sound like much when it comes to FDM high end.

No, I'm talking about hobbyist builds. Yes, you can drop a couple of orders of magnitude more on industrial printers but I was under the impression we were discussing the consumer space, unless you'd like to move those goalposts?

>Are you thinking that Prusa printers are a "hobbyist journey"? Because they're definitely an appliance. Not only that, they're an appliance that can be repaired with off-the-shelf parts for the most part.

That's not what I was saying at all. I was saying that if you're after the hobbyist journey, dumping $1k into a Mk4 doesn't make sense. That's money better invested in something that will ultimately be a better printer.

If you're after the appliance experience, the Mk4 is a worse option than a Bambu would be.

>While it does hinder them competing on price, it also grants them some flexibility to improve designs over time. Since the printer has printed parts, users can print the new/better designs if they want.

This isn't mutually exclusive.

Bambu has made revisions to the parts they send out of the factory. End users have made extensive modifications like the excellent Hydra AMS.

Being flexible doesn't mean locking yourself into low volume, expensive production.

>don't require any manual tuning by the user (just like Prusa.)

Not just like Prusa. Better than Prusa does. The machine calibrates itself for EM and PA for any arbitrary filament. This is a large part of the "produces better prints" equation.

>What about contributions to the 3d printing community?

Their slic3r fork is the basis for Orca Slicer, which has become my preferred slicer on non-Bambu printers.

>What about repair?

Bambu provides detailed repair guides for the entire machine in both text and video format:

https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/x1/maintenance

>What about support (and I'm not talking about Prusa's chat/email)?

Nearly every part on the printer is directly available on Bambu's webstore and reasonably priced.

>Or will they instead want you to buy a whole new printer to get the latest whatever that they've lifted from the community?

Long term support remains a question mark but they've made promising first moves on that front. The P1 series have seen a number of upgrades since launch and the firmware for the X1 continues to receive significant firmware growth -- a completely new motor calibration routine got pushed out this month, for example. It's an unknowable at this point.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#109
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you've said is true, but it assumes the goal is money. If that's the measurement, then yes they should do that. I'm not him so I can't say for certain, but money doesn't seem to be Jo's end-goal.

I’m 100% in favor of money not always being the primary purpose of a business. That being said, you still have to be profitable (if even by a penny), or the business will cease to exist at some point. I hope there is enough of a niche for what Prusa wants to continue to do, but I’m not sure.

I'm not sure either, but AFAIK they've expanded every year. They seem to be doing fine.

Re: Why Prusa is floundering, and how you can avoid their fate

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should know you can't just compare specs and stats and say the K1 Max is better. Print quality and reliability isn't something that shows up on a spec sheet, and Creality struggles here. Bambu is certainly a credible competitor though.

Honestly, as someone who's been in the 3d printing space for over a decade... Bambu Labs isn't a competitor to Prusa. There is no Prusa printer that is as fast, as reliable, produces the quality prints, as any printer from Bambu. I've used both extensively, the X1C since Kickstarter days, the Prusas for... just about ever. The only edge, the only objective property that Prusa holds over Bambu Labs is customization; P…

My experience did not match your. My X1C combo hadn't really work out of the box. I was able to get maybe 2 prints so far.

That said, I am just an sample of one and the only reason why I bought it because my business need seems more pressing than waiting for Prusa to deliver the MMU3 kits.

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