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Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

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Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#101

Post by yoyohello13 »

da4id wrote: post #68
p-e-w wrote: post #24

While writing a text editor, a compiler, an operating system, or a raytracer might make you a better programmer, it won't make you a better software engineer. In fact, it might make you worse at software engineering, because it embodies the disastrous "Not Invented Here" doctrine. Hackers like to obsess about Big-O, data structures, HoTT, and other high-theory stuff, yet the following skills, essential for software e…

Do you have any good resources for what you mentioned?

Have good critical thinking skills and you’re pretty much there.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#102

Post by p-e-w »

tehnub wrote: post #83
p-e-w wrote: post #24

While writing a text editor, a compiler, an operating system, or a raytracer might make you a better programmer, it won't make you a better software engineer. In fact, it might make you worse at software engineering, because it embodies the disastrous "Not Invented Here" doctrine. Hackers like to obsess about Big-O, data structures, HoTT, and other high-theory stuff, yet the following skills, essential for software e…

This is like telling a student learning an instrument never to practice scales or études because there are other skills necessary for playing in an orchestra. Those other skills are important, but you have to develop your chops at some point, and being a better a programmer will certainly help with basically all those skills you listed anyway.

> This is like telling a student learning an instrument never to practice scales or études

No, it's like recognizing that an orchestra conductor doesn't need to play every instrument (or even any instrument!) in order to make music.

Or alternatively, that a violin player doesn't need to understand the physics of acoustic dispersion in order to be the best in the world at playing the violin.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#103

Post by bobsomers »

p-e-w wrote: post #24

While writing a text editor, a compiler, an operating system, or a raytracer might make you a better programmer, it won't make you a better software engineer. In fact, it might make you worse at software engineering, because it embodies the disastrous "Not Invented Here" doctrine. Hackers like to obsess about Big-O, data structures, HoTT, and other high-theory stuff, yet the following skills, essential for software e…

I don't understand why you think a search engine requires the use of "real engineering skills" like picking and choosing libraries and identifying which opportunities will yield fruitful optimization.

Literally all of the listed projects, text editors, compilers, operating systems, and ray tracers, can exercise the exact same activities.

I'm more inclined to think that your comment is really more revealing about what kind of knowledge is in your own personal wheelhouse. Having worked on a ray tracer that was subsequently used on many feature films, I can assure you that all of your bullet points apply to that project, too.

It's much more a matter of whether you want to do something small scale and fun, or whether you want to suck all the joy out of it by applying the same soul crushing constraints we already get paid to do in our day jobs. Bleh.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#105

Post by tock »

p-e-w wrote: post #102
tehnub wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like telling a student learning an instrument never to practice scales or études because there are other skills necessary for playing in an orchestra. Those other skills are important, but you have to develop your chops at some point, and being a better a programmer will certainly help with basically all those skills you listed anyway.

> This is like telling a student learning an instrument never to practice scales or études No, it's like recognizing that an orchestra conductor doesn't need to play every instrument (or even any instrument!) in order to make music. Or alternatively, that a violin player doesn't need to understand the physics of acoustic dispersion in order to be the best in the world at playing the violin.

Yes a software engineer understanding data structures and runtime complexity is akin to a violin player understanding the physics of acoustic dispersion.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#106

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

bobsomers wrote: post #103
p-e-w wrote: post #24

While writing a text editor, a compiler, an operating system, or a raytracer might make you a better programmer, it won't make you a better software engineer. In fact, it might make you worse at software engineering, because it embodies the disastrous "Not Invented Here" doctrine. Hackers like to obsess about Big-O, data structures, HoTT, and other high-theory stuff, yet the following skills, essential for software e…

I don't understand why you think a search engine requires the use of "real engineering skills" like picking and choosing libraries and identifying which opportunities will yield fruitful optimization. Literally all of the listed projects, text editors, compilers, operating systems, and ray tracers, can exercise the exact same activities. I'm more inclined to think that your comment is really more revealing about what…

> I'm more inclined to think that your comment is really more revealing about what kind of knowledge is in your own personal wheelhouse.

That's my read as well.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#107

Post by p-e-w »

bobsomers wrote: post #103
p-e-w wrote: post #24

While writing a text editor, a compiler, an operating system, or a raytracer might make you a better programmer, it won't make you a better software engineer. In fact, it might make you worse at software engineering, because it embodies the disastrous "Not Invented Here" doctrine. Hackers like to obsess about Big-O, data structures, HoTT, and other high-theory stuff, yet the following skills, essential for software e…

I don't understand why you think a search engine requires the use of "real engineering skills" like picking and choosing libraries and identifying which opportunities will yield fruitful optimization. Literally all of the listed projects, text editors, compilers, operating systems, and ray tracers, can exercise the exact same activities. I'm more inclined to think that your comment is really more revealing about what…

> Literally all of the listed projects, text editors, compilers, operating systems, and ray tracers, can exercise the exact same activities.

In the linked article, these projects are all explicitly described as opportunities to learn about low-level stuff like how to efficiently store editable text. The difference with a web search engine is that nobody today can build such a thing completely from scratch, therefore it forces you to give up the toxic NIH mentality, which in my experience is usually driven by elitism and ego (on full display in this comment thread), not by some lofty desire to learn something new.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#108

Post by p-e-w »

tock wrote: post #105
p-e-w wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is like telling a student learning an instrument never to practice scales or études No, it's like recognizing that an orchestra conductor doesn't need to play every instrument (or even any instrument!) in order to make music. Or alternatively, that a violin player doesn't need to understand the physics of acoustic dispersion in order to be the best in the world at playing the violin.

Yes a software engineer understanding data structures and runtime complexity is akin to a violin player understanding the physics of acoustic dispersion.

Is it not? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Re: Challenging projects every programmer should try (2019)

#110

Post by Arcanum-XIII »

DeathArrow wrote: post #87
anta40 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those who deal with OS kernel, compiler etc on daily basis also understand those points. They use various tools to make code review, time management etc easier. Not all hackers are overly obsessed with the most efficient Big O and various low level (sorry pun intended) details.

>Not all hackers are overly obsessed with the most efficient Big O and various low level (sorry pun intended) details. A NAND gate is low level. Big O is just theory that anyone should know if he's worth something as a programmer.

Most of the time, big O is not relevant if you're not writing new algorithm. For the usual CRUD app? Not so much. Heck even for more involved work, you will not touch them because your solution will be called or will call some external tools.

The good news is that, while still valuable, you won't have to lose time creating a new broken wheel. The bad news is that this part of CompSci is now mostly fundamental research.

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