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More product, fewer product managers

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Re: More product, fewer product managers

#101

Post by tomrod »

ath3nd wrote: post #93
alistairSH wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you DO have a product manager. You might not call them that, but that’s exactly what they’re doing.

That's not a product manager. That's a domain expert. You might have to check some regulatory checkboxes: - financial - medical - data protection and you might need different experts' opinion for that. Do you suggest that they are all product managers?

Good product managers I've worked with are better than me at navigating the domain and compliance worlds as tourists as they are tourists in the engineering side as well. David Ricardo was right, comparative advantage is a good thing.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#102

Post by epgui »

legendofbrando wrote: post #78
epgui wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is what happens when you have limited resources and you need to decide where to allocate them. Politics are everywhere humans are.

Yes to this. Too many people complain about politics as if it is some “outside” force and not simply implicit in the way that human beings organize diversified interests. Since each of us can only embody our own world view, politics is inevitable. I understand that what people typically mean is people who are “too political” where the pushing for interests stops being in service of some goal and starts to become its…

Politics would be less of a shit show if people had intro textbook level knowledge about political science and/or didn’t approach it like a sport.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#103

Post by tomrod »

legendofbrando wrote: post #88
gardenhedge wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible you've never worked with politically minded people but I doubt it. It can be as small as an engineer broadcasting how hard a problem is before solving it. If they do that, they get the kudos for doing it. If they don't, it just gets done unnoticed.

Most people who dislike political people are failing to place the blame on the right actor. Sounds like this engineer has recognized how to get rewarded at their job and has adjusted their behavior to fit. The actual root problem is that this reward system fails to recognize the quiet everyday progress required to make something great.

In other words, in areas of limited resources where politics are innate, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#104

Post by Wurdan »

radiator wrote: post #98
Wurdan wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also helps to be able to understand the tech enough to know if a certain approach is going to impact other initiatives which are further down the roadmap. One of my favourite questions I've been asked by a PM is "Will any of this work become easier to do if we change the order of these work items?"

I would have thought every manager asks such questions either to himself or to the team quite often.

Not in my experience - juggling priorities is usually difficult enough when you're just trying to manage the C-suite's favourite ideas, or feature requests from the highest revenue customer, etc. Factoring in synergistic engineering efforts is out of reach for a lot of PMs that I've worked with.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#105

Post by bjornsing »

epgui wrote: post #69
demondemidi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?

Politics is what happens when you have limited resources and you need to decide where to allocate them. Politics are everywhere humans are.

That’s the good side of politics, and I agree: it is everywhere humans are trying to accomplish things together.

But when I say gravitate away from hard work towards playing politics it refers to something else of course. Getting others to do your work while still claiming credit is one example.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#106

Post by epgui »

bjornsing wrote: post #105
epgui wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics is what happens when you have limited resources and you need to decide where to allocate them. Politics are everywhere humans are.

That’s the good side of politics, and I agree: it is everywhere humans are trying to accomplish things together. But when I say gravitate away from hard work towards playing politics it refers to something else of course. Getting others to do your work while still claiming credit is one example.

It’s not the good side of politics, it’s how it’s defined in textbooks.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#107

Post by bjornsing »

demondemidi wrote: post #67
bjornsing wrote: post #63

I've spent some time interacting with product managers as an engineering manager, or head of a functional area. I've also been "acting" PM for an internal product at a medium size tech company. I think product management entails some of the most important things a company does. But it's really hard work, and many less capable PMs gravitate away from it and more towards either "driving" (i.e. micromanaging) the engine…

“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?

You’ve worked for 35 years and you’ve never seen anyone act out of self-interest to the detriment of the project / company? Either you’re incredibly lucky or you’re blind. ;)

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#108

Post by bjornsing »

rjzzleep wrote: post #72
demondemidi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Politics” 35 years in the semi industry. I must be stupid. I really don’t see politics. I see people trying to argue for their option and get support. But I’ve never seen this politics that people complain about. I’m so lucky I guess. Is politics just someone making a better argument that is the wrong technical decision? What is “politics”? Or am I just not at a high enough level (senior principal)?

Politics is a when a company like Caterpillar spends a year trying to acquire GPU's for their autonomous vehicle teams, because they have 20 security and project managers that want to assert themselves in every conversation to get promoted, to get to senior leadership positions, while the company looses out to Chinese competitors they were ahead of. Politics is also when middle managers and 2 engineers conspire to st…

Good examples! :)

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#109

Post by ath3nd »

tomrod wrote: post #100
lol768 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I consult a solicitor about data protection regulation and they tell me what I need to build to satisfy the requirements of soft opt-in under PECR, that does not make them a product manager!

No, but it's something a good product manager does for you, and with the economy of comparative and potentially absolute advantages. This let's you focus on the craft of delivery without encumberance of spending research into compliance.

I don't consider the engineering having a deep understanding of the domain and compliance to be a "encumberance". The more engineers get into the domain themselves, the more they can make deep decisions about how to build the most effective solutions.

> This let's you focus on the craft of delivery

I don't give a rat's ass about the craft of delivery! What a reductionist thing to think of engineers as "delivery machines". Me and my team mates are not a factory that simply takes input from a task master and produces code to their bidding.

I care only about one thing: solving the problem! That encompasses learning, understanding and, finally: delivery. To do that, I need to speak to stakeholders MYSELF, I need to see how they are using the product MYSELF, and any regulation I am gonna implement, I need to understand in depth. I don't need somebody to summarize findings for me, I can make my own damn conclusions.

Sure, I will ask the domain experts of their opinion, but me and my teams will decide what to build, when, and how, and do we will do it together, based on all our shared learnings, not based on what a PM told us.

Re: More product, fewer product managers

#110

Post by naijaboiler »

ath3nd wrote: post #70
bjornsing wrote: post #63

I've spent some time interacting with product managers as an engineering manager, or head of a functional area. I've also been "acting" PM for an internal product at a medium size tech company. I think product management entails some of the most important things a company does. But it's really hard work, and many less capable PMs gravitate away from it and more towards either "driving" (i.e. micromanaging) the engine…

I don't believe in Product Managers or Project Owners as a net good towards building a better product or a better company. The most successful teams I have been in had no dedicated product role, instead, all decisions were made by the developers. My current view is best to remove all type of non technical people or even mildly technical people from the developers' way and let them build in peace.

What was the product being built.
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