Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting • Hacker News Board

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#101

Post by VeejayRampay » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:48 PM UTC

methoddk wrote: post #17

It's basic etiquette to not interrupt someone in that manner if they have the podium. Even if he was right, he should've waited. Real douche move to do that to someone's entire presentation. I'm all for speaking your mind in public, and standing up for an opinion, but timing is everything. Yehuda Katz has poor timing.

You read ONE side of the story. Maybe the programmer ended up butt-hurt that someone corrected him and wanted revenge. In any case, don't use such strange language until BOTH sides of the affair have provided their recollection of the events.

If he was at a local user group in the first place, then I'd say his timing was awesome, cause despite his obvious rockstar status in the community, he still spends time helping and creating at the base level, and he should be thanked for that.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#102

Post by iamchrisle » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:50 PM UTC

iamchrisle wrote: post #81

My name is Chris Le and I was there. Here's what I recall happened: 1. Dude was making a presentation on meta programming. 2. Dude had his laptop plugged in and live coded. 3. Dude seemed to struggle a little. 4. Katz asked him "Why are you doing it this way? Shouldn't you ..." 5. Dude attempted to explain. Possibly tripped up by the question. 6. Group + Katz helped to debug his code and got it working. 7. Katz expla…

"Dude" I think was Andre Dhondt (http://phillyemergingtech.com/2012/speakers/andre-dhondt) I think he tripped up he was live coding and everyone could see him thinking and hitting backspace live.

I personally think it's blown out of proportions because everyone there helped debug and got it working. #6.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#103

Post by httpitis » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:50 PM UTC

davidbalbert wrote: post #21

This is a touchy subject. I think this kind of behavior is very counterproductive and we (programmers) seem to do it a lot. It's something that needs to be talked about and fixed. Miguel de Icaza wrote a great blog post about "well-actuallys" a year ago and it's definitely worth reading: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html That being said, it makes me uncomfortable that an article called "Why you shouldn…

Well said. Upvote on me, Sir.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#104

Post by iamchrisle » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:52 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #98

iamchrisle wrote: post #81

My name is Chris Le and I was there. Here's what I recall happened: 1. Dude was making a presentation on meta programming. 2. Dude had his laptop plugged in and live coded. 3. Dude seemed to struggle a little. 4. Katz asked him "Why are you doing it this way? Shouldn't you ..." 5. Dude attempted to explain. Possibly tripped up by the question. 6. Group + Katz helped to debug his code and got it working. 7. Katz expla…

Upvoted for being an observer and providing a first-hand report.

Thanks.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#105

Post by justjimmy » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:52 PM UTC

From reading all the comments on here as well as the events, I think it all just boils down to common courtesy and etiquette. Some think etiquette goes out the window as long as the point is valid (the end justifies the mean). Some think a little more tact needs to be observed, some grace and choice of words.

Some are good in their field, but not good enough for others to over look their fault. Some are so good, people will continue listen to them even if they are brunt and aggressive - they can tune it out or shrug it off. We've all made these choices before. The bar for tolerance shifts depends on the speaker/interrupter.

Personally, I think the HN title is weak and a low blow - from the article:

"But if he, or anyone, pulls that kind of shit, be better than me and stand up and say something."

So the author did nothing at the event, decides it's more productive to slander this person on the internet, then he's not making it hard for others to be better a person than he is.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#106

Post by quanticle » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:54 PM UTC

davidbalbert wrote: post #66

kaiuhl wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree. What doesn't get mentioned in the OP is just how incorrect the presentation was. If I was a ruby newbie, I'd want someone to stand up and say why the presentation, which was surely being presented as truth, was actually incorrect. In addition, publicly berating Yehuda seems really pointless given his huge contributions to our community. Let's be nice.

I think programmers generally care too much about correctness at the expense of feelings, community, and personal relationships. Very often correcting someone is really about showing how smart you are. While I wasn't at the event in the article, it certainly seems that Yehuda could have been doing that, and he shouldn't have done it. I just don't think this is a productive way to fix the problem.

I think programmers generally care too much about correctness at the expense of feelings, community, and personal relationships.

Maybe. Or, maybe like other engineers we care more about having things that work than your hurt feelings. In Inviting Disaster [1], Chiles talks about how the most successful engineering cultures don't cover up mistakes. They expose them and correct them at the earliest possible instance. This does sometimes require people to have a thick skin. It's not comfortable to realize that you're wrong. But, frankly, I'd much rather be correct than comfortable.

Of course, this doesn't mean that you should personally attack the person who's wrong. But, from the article, that's exactly what happened. Ms. Selle doesn't say that Mr. Katz personally attacked the presenter. She just said that he questioned the presenter's methods and approach. I think that's entirely valid. I see it at scientific conferences all the time.

I do agree that interrupting the presenter was uncalled for. Mr. Katz should have reserved his questions until the presenter was done speaking. But I don't think he was incorrect in asking the questions that he did.

[1]: http://www.amazon.com/Inviting-Disaster-Lessons-From-Technol...

EDIT: accidentally forgot link

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#107

Post by ryankshaw » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:55 PM UTC

davidbalbert wrote: post #21

This is a touchy subject. I think this kind of behavior is very counterproductive and we (programmers) seem to do it a lot. It's something that needs to be talked about and fixed. Miguel de Icaza wrote a great blog post about "well-actuallys" a year ago and it's definitely worth reading: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html That being said, it makes me uncomfortable that an article called "Why you shouldn…

I agree. I find it ironic that a post that attempts tell us all how to be kinder to each other and invokes the words of "How to win friends" would call someone out by name in a public forum.

Even if the author was doing it to "make sure that he saw it so you could teach him a lesson", just saying "Last night at Philly.rb, a guy was giving a presentation on meta programming and he was rudely interrupted by another programmer. Lets talk about why this kind of behavior is bad" would have been enough. It would have been a good thing for all of us that have the same tendency to hear, and wycats could have seen it and said "oh, my bad, I can see how that wasn't very nice" without being called out infront of his peers.

Re: Why you shouldn't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group meeting

#108

Post by DanBC » Thu, Apr 12, 2012, 4:56 PM UTC

A few people are saying that this[1] comes from a desire to show how smart you are.

I honestly think it's not about showing other people how smart you are, but that it's a desire to be correct. It's something that a few people do really struggle with. It has nothing to do with whether other people are around or not.

Some people need to correct mistakes. Other people need to ((close braces.)

[1] Interrupting other people with corrections.