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Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

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Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#101

Post by brundolf »

r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

Every once in a while I grab a water cup, usually at a coffee shop, and I notice the cups smell a bit like bleach. Always struck me as weird, but I figured they wouldn't put them out that way if it wasn't safe

I might be more careful now

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#102

Post by jwells89 »

konamicode wrote: post #68

I might be generalising but in some countries (UK) it's common to not rinse soap/washing up liquid off dishes after washing them by hand. Being hypochondriac I was always curious about health aspects of this and feared something similar to what's described in the article.

I’m surprised that people don’t taste that in the food/drink they consume off their soapy dishes. It’s a distinct unpleasant taste that I tend to over rinse somewhat just to avoid, especially with cups/mugs where transfer is maximized.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#103

Post by zoklet-enjoyer »

brundolf wrote: post #101
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

Every once in a while I grab a water cup, usually at a coffee shop, and I notice the cups smell a bit like bleach. Always struck me as weird, but I figured they wouldn't put them out that way if it wasn't safe I might be more careful now

I doubt most minimum wage earning coffee shop teens will know any better.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#104

Post by tzs »

lnsru wrote: post #63
potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

We separate meats and cutting boards. The ones who were used for meat are being washed very carefully with lots of chemicals and hot water. Dishwasher runs at 65 degree Celsius. That’s enough for disinfection in my books. Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months. We have only couple things open in the fridge and don’t keep them for long. That means if pesto is open we eat noodles more often. There is no rocket scie…

> Plus cleaning with chlorine every 3 months

Isn't bacteria growth exponential (up until you reach the maximum number that your environment can support)? And don't they often have insane doubling times (something like 20 minutes for salmonella and e. coli)?

Given that I'd wonder if cleaning every 3 months actually makes much difference, except for maybe a couple days right after you clean. Past that any that were missed in the cleaning will have repopulated back to whatever levels they were before the cleaning.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#105

Post by AndrewKemendo »

brundolf wrote: post #101
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

Every once in a while I grab a water cup, usually at a coffee shop, and I notice the cups smell a bit like bleach. Always struck me as weird, but I figured they wouldn't put them out that way if it wasn't safe I might be more careful now

Almost universally, the people handling your food at time of service have the least amount of training in the food delivery chain.

Upscale restaurants will generally do a better job here with temperature control and regular inspections.

Having a food handlers card as a chef is generally required but not for expo or servers and questionable for line chefs outside of higher end establishments.

Bottom line, unless you’re at a Michelin or Beard restaurant you should expect you’re being exposed to more harmful stuff than you’d expect.

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#106

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

I don’t see any mention of that in the article. Where did you read it?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#107

Post by potatopatch »

tzs wrote: post #99
potatopatch wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely common to get food poisoning at home, and for many people/cases it is indistinguishable from the flu. Who separates meats in their fridge and on their cutting boards, dates the opening times of items, etc? Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything, which is why its safer AFA chemicals. It's just providing the hope that small doses of something you've already interacted with won't…

> Similarly, a home dishwasher doesn't actually sterilize anything What do you consider to be sterilization? Even my old dishwasher, which was made in 2002, has a sani-rinse option that adds a 10 minute rinse with 160℉ (71℃) water which the manual says satisfies the NSF Protocol P153 for sanitizing in household spray-type dishwashers. Unfortunately I can't find a free copy of NSF Protocol P153 to see what that actual…

> has a sani-rinse option that adds a 10 minute rinse with 160℉ (71℃) water

And everyone who owns that model uses that option every time? For the industry washers there's probably less options to bypass sanitation.

It's merely statistical matters that make it less relevant how often people insufficiently sanitize at home. If some are actually immuno compromised and kill themselves that's still nothing like single Burger joint to a public health policy.

(I seem to have triggered the HN "everyone has my current OCDs and doesn't behave like my college roommates" on this thread.)

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#108

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

mikkom wrote: post #17
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

> They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers. this should be the top comment

I did not see that in the article. Where is it?

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#109

Post by bluejekyll »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #106
r1ch wrote: post #13

From my understanding, this article is only about professional dishwashers used in restaurants and hotels etc. that use much higher concentrations and less rinsing than consumer dishwashers. They specifically mention that they could not repeat their findings on consumer dishwashers.

I don’t see any mention of that in the article. Where did you read it?

“… in concentrations used in professional dishwashers.“

Re: Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher detergents and rinse aids

#110

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

danw1979 wrote: post #46
heftig wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it have to be anhydrous? Seems like a waste to go for the more expensive stuff when you're going to dissolve it anyway. Food-grade citric acid monohydrate should be cheaper.

The manual just said a citric acid solution so I guess whatever source will do. I suppose it’s just as easy to get a reasonably accurate concentration if you account for the water already present in monohydrate.

What do the dishes look like with this solution? I’ve never used rinse aid or any variants, and i wonder what I’m missing.
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