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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#101

Post by liquidpele »

coliveira wrote: post #65
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

There is a reason companies pay for this process: they are allowed to maintain the worker for as long as the process goes. And for many people this can take up to 10 years, depending on nationality. If they have a good employee, it is a no-brainer to pay so they cannot leave the company, under the penalty of having the green card process cancelled or restarted.

> If they have a good employee

I think you mean cheaper employee.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#102

Post by dataflow »

JAlexoid wrote: post #77
dfadsadsf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee? Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

I think their unstated assumption is that higher pay = higher skill = harder to find.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#103

Post by alphanullmeric »

rexpop wrote: post #99
alphanullmeric wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What gun? I see only the one you’re asking to be pointed at others.

Deportation orders in the United States are executed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a division of the Department of Homeland Security. ICE agents are authorized to carry firearms such as handguns, rifles, and shotguns.

ok. Say we didn't have ICE. How will you now justify holding others at gunpoint to violate a contract you voluntarily signed while having the part that benefits you still enforced? Or is immigration the only thing you were thinking of when you asked for more laws?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#104

Post by liquidpele »

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #91
standardUser wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point You're saying that Apple can't find people from less-developed countries with these specific credentials and then offer them a starting salary that's $100k under what they would have needed to offer to someone from California? > because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2. Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, b…

> Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay. The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility - the bar to hire an H-1B is much higher than to hire a US native worker. Once you have an EB-2 (an immigrant visa, that entitles you to a Green Card), that no longer applies - modulo national-securi…

> The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility

There’s more to it than that, but that’s one of the big ones. Have you worked with foreign contractors/outsourcing before? If so you know why jumping to another job would be difficult.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#105

Post by hashtag-til »

microtherion wrote: post #86
pavlov wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been…

[flagged]

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#106

Post by az226 »

dfadsadsf wrote: post #43
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

What % of approved PERM applications do you think had a salary of $50k? Clown.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#107

Post by az226 »

vsskanth wrote: post #100

I think this relates to something called batch PERM where they can apply for employment based (EB) green cards for batches of their existing visa employees in similar roles instead of doing recruitment for every single position. Meta got in trouble with the DOJ for the same thing. They advertised for positions in newspapers and only accepted paper applications for PERM positions, unlike their other jobs which are adv…

Legislators can change the rules if they don’t like them and want them changed. They can add the requirement of posting the job online.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#108

Post by billy_bitchtits »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #80

I have worked at other FAANGs where I see certain immigrant managers only seem to hire other immigrants from the same country...

happens every time where I work. once you get a manager from India, they will rarely hire anyone other than Indians again.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#109

Post by rahimnathwani »

JAlexoid wrote: post #77
dfadsadsf wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists. PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works. It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k a…

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee? Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

Why do you get to pick which occupations are most worthy?

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#110

Post by deaddodo »

JAlexoid wrote: post #81
supportengineer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You will obey your manager or you will be deported" is very powerful.

Yeah.... Except that this is not true. There's not enough talent in US, so we have to seek elsewhere. American graduates have these starry eyes and want to work mostly in two types of companies FAANG or early stage startups... Who's going to go to work at pharma companies, banks, electric companies?

Except, of all nations in the world, the US is still by far the largest foreign skilled talent hirer.

Brain drain is something they bought into during the cold war and this idea that "they don't have talent" is ridiculous. They have a shit ton of homegrown talent and are also more than willing to hire your talent to further monopolize and supplement it.

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