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Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

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Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#101

Post by matthewdgreen »

SECProto wrote: post #99
Reason077 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear is often touted as a carbon solution (especially here on HN!) but the enormous cost and long construction times make it somewhat ineffective at reducing emissions compared to other technologies. Given that governments and utilities operate with finite budgets, for each € invested in nuclear, we’re actually much better off investing in lower-cost, lower-risk projects and technologies (renewables, electrificati…

> for each € invested in nuclear, we’re actually much better off investing in lower-cost, lower-risk projects and technologies (renewables, electrification, heat pumps, grid upgrades, insulation, storage, etc) that deliver more carbon savings per € spent much more quickly. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely think all those are key, and need to be focused on immediately. Those help to reduce demand, but (with the except…

The problem with this analysis is that existing renewable capacity was largely constructed during a time when renewables cost dramatically more than fossil energy and nuclear. We’re now moving into a period where they cost dramatically less, and the capacity to build them is vastly greater. We’ve already passed the tipping point for most types of generation, and the cost decreases don’t seem poised to stop. So it’s sort of like watching the first generation of inexpensive Intel PC CPUs roll out of the fab, while simultaneously pointing out that PCs were too expensive to get much adoption in the past. Technically a valid thing to observe, but also not really useful.

To give you some sense of the enormity of the change, China over the first 9 months of 2023 built 215 TWh of wind and PV (numbers already adjusted for capacity factor), which eclipses the combined 206 TWh of every single nuclear power plant they have under construction today (there are 26 of them.)

Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#102

Post by gopher_space »

quacked wrote: post #60
nikanj wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That tells you how pointless all the at-home energy savings are when everyone and their dog flies to a weekend getaway every month

I know people who attend sit-in protests at Chase Bank locations over fossil fuel divestment who also fly internationally 3-4 times per year for pleasure. The cognitive dissonance and lack of engineering intuition among the general populace is staggering.

Where’s the line between hypocrisy and an understanding of scale in your model?

Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#103

Post by quacked »

gopher_space wrote: post #102
quacked wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people who attend sit-in protests at Chase Bank locations over fossil fuel divestment who also fly internationally 3-4 times per year for pleasure. The cognitive dissonance and lack of engineering intuition among the general populace is staggering.

Where’s the line between hypocrisy and an understanding of scale in your model?

You know, I'm not mad at them, and I don't think they're necessarily being hypocrites. I imagine that if they really understood the engineering and chemistry around oil, they would alter either their behavior or their politics.

I'm bothered that anti-oil westerners are unaware of how heavily their existence is subsidized by oil. Every part of life we take for granted exists because of readily available petroleum. Western students are taught the environmental consequences of fossil fuel burning without ever really learning the degree to which every first-world nation in the world relies on petroleum for plastic, fertilizer, fuel for shipping food/fuel/goods, etc. For the record, I would like to divest from oil wherever possible, but I am actually ready to give up many of the modern benefits of the oil-consuming first world. I don't think the people I know who sit in at the banks are.

Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#104

Post by kortilla »

dylan604 wrote: post #75
kortilla wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protesting Chase doesn’t stop investments. It just pushes them elsewhere. Those activists are morons and stopping their flights would do far more to help than to protest a single bank. If they were protesting the government to massively increase oil taxes then you might have a point. Alas, they don’t have any economic intuition.

If those protestors did not have tickets on those flights, somebody else would be able to purchase them. It's not like the plane isn't going to fly that route because of this. So whether the protesters fly or somebody else, the plane is still make the emissions you're concerned about.

“If I don’t rob this bank, someone else will!”

Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#105

Post by cobaltoxide »

Reason077 wrote: post #37
iljah wrote: post #2

This energy storage system near Helsinki, Finland operated by Helen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Oy ) might be interesting for HN readers. Some facts from previous article ( https://www.helen.fi/en/news/2020/mustikkamaa ), not sure which one would've been better in url field: District heat is stored in two rock caverns in Mustikkamaa. The temperature of the water in the caverns varies between 50 and 90 °C. T…

This is a cool project, and I'm sure it has many benefits beyond just carbon savings. But 21,000 tonnes per year is surprisingly little in the scheme of things. Equivalent of about 150 or so long-haul 777 flights?

That should tell you more about the energy intensity of a long-haul 777 flight.

Re: Gigantic heat caverns in Mustikkamaa have now been filled with water (2021)

#106

Post by kwhitefoot »

ahartmetz wrote: post #83
kwhitefoot wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The little town I live in (about 40 km south of Oslo) is supplied from a lake in the granite hills. They filter out the bugs and precipitate the solids with a little aluminium sulphate and that's it. It's above all the agriculture so no chlorine is needed and there is no chalk so no problems with deposits on the insides of kettles and water heaters.

Does it taste good? My favorite so far has been Vienna - I would describe it as similar to Evian.

It has been crowned best water in the country. Yes it tastes good, I'm quite happy to put it in my Laphroiag.
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