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Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

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Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#101
post #93
post #22

Does anyone remember a meta study that showed ANY even slightly reasonable restrictive diet works because they almost by definition dramatically reduced sugar and HFCS in the diet, and if you just controlled for that, the individual types of restriction didn't matter? I can't find it on PubMed or in my bookmarks. If memory serves - high/low fat, high/low carb, high/low protein, etc - didn't matter as long as the rest…

The thing that fully convinced me over a decade ago that all effective methods for weight loss are just "calories in, calories out" underneath was the dude that lost 27lbs in 2 and a half months on a diet of mostly twinkies with occasional other junk food for variety. https://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor... Yes, there are other variables like hormone levels (thyroid adjacent ones particularly)…

> I don't understand why so many people find this simple, well established explanation unsatisfying and hard to accept.

Because when people try to put it into practice in a form that's not dangerous they struggle, and when humans struggle at something they feel compelled to theorize the struggle. "There must be a reason this isn't working for me," they say, "one that doesn't ultimately reflect on my morally culpable lack of capacity to exert my will." [To be clear, I don't think people are to blame for lacking willpower, I'm just identifying the logic here.]

Looking around, they observe that some people have more success on a diet where they restrict some particular type of food X. This success comes from playing a trick on the brain, making it think that it is not in a position of deciding to eat less every day, but is being forced to eat less. Some restrictions manage to play this trick on the brain successfully for some people some of the time. People promoting diets that are not just "calories in, calories out" are hoping to take advantage of this effect. When these diets become popular, it's because the logic I identified allows people to say "it's not that I failed to force myself to eat less, it's that I didn't stop eating carbs" - or what have you.

One reason it's hard to eat less that you didn't bring up is that the body reacts to you eating less by reducing your metabolism. I don't mean this in a magical fashion where the body has a high efficiency mode or that you can somehow gain weight while eating fewer calories than you consume, but in the simple ordinary sense that people dieting tend to be tired and more lazy. Your body does not want to stay at the same level of activity while dieting, and so you lose less weight than you'd expect with a simple metabolic rate calculation. You can allow for this of course, but it means you have to cut even more.

So I don't know that many people reject the basic physics of calories in, calories out per se. Most reasonable people talking about this are more interested in why attempting a pure "eat less food" diet tends to fail, and what tricks can be employed to achieve appetite reduction. The various individualized factors can be overwhelming, especially when you consider that many people don't have access to adequate nutrition and healthcare.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All weight loss is because of a calorie deficit; that isn't (or shouldn't be) controversial. The interesting questions are why a diet produces a caloric deficit, and how difficult that deficit is to maintain. The "don't eat anything and drink nothing but water" diet produces a caloric deficit through a very obvious mechanism, but it isn't something people can adhere to long-term. Semaglutide produces a caloric defici…

> All weight loss is because of a calorie deficit; that isn't (or shouldn't be) controversial. It's very controversial, which is part of why the SMTM blog exists in the first place. If running a calorie deficit were sufficient then any diet in the world should work, and we have so much evidence of obese people struggling with quality of life even living on extreme calorie deficit diets. It's not willpower, not all ca…

This post is really confusing. The "Standard Calorie Model" is not a thing. Are you using the term as a shorthand? If so, other people aren't going to know what it means. Regardless, nothing related to the use of calories to quantify energy intake from food or energy burned from exercise comes from Nazi Germany or Dr Kellogg.

Despite other ridiculous beliefs Kellogg was a big fan of vegetables which were a big part of his diets. The only study semi-related to food and Germany in the 30s/40s I can think of is the Warsaw Ghetto Hunger Study, but that was on the physical and psychological effects of starvation not how calories are calculated and was done by Jewish doctors in Poland not Germany.

The use of calorie to refer to energy in food and the first method for measuring the amount came from Atwater in the late 1890s and the first studies on the amount of calories people burned were done in the 1910s resulting in the Harris-Benedict equation, a modified version of which is still in use today for calculating metabolic rates.

Like yes theres still a lot of challenges in how calories in food and calories burned are calculated and a lot of values can end up being wrong on both sides, but thats only a problem of the equation having incorrect numbers and doesn't disprove CICO itself.

I'm seriously confused where you got the ideas you're putting forward here.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#103
post #89
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that people report that the potato diet is /easy/. No cravings, no endless hunger & having to force yourself to calorie count and stop eating when you hit your target. Eat as much as you like, when you like. That’s radically different from other diets.

I guess it's easy on the hunger/cravings side of things but it eliminates your ability to enjoy food and enjoy the social aspect of dining. I achieved similar by swapping out white bread for whole wheat and mostly eliminating dessert from my diet. I also have no hunger/cravings/calorie counting but I still enjoy all my meals. I don't mean to say that any one diet is the answer, just that if your goals are modest you…

Eliminating deserts doesn't make cravings go away for me. I feel hungry (or a weird similar feeling) until I eat something sweet, no matter how much I eat of a main course.

But I tried the potato diet and my cravings were gone. For two weeks it was trivial to keep, but then social aspects intervened and I gave it up.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#104

I really enjoyed SMTM's "A Chemical Hunger" series[1]. But recently they've gone into weird fad-diet territory with their potato obsession. Like, they crow that the potato mono-diet "works," in that the people who successfully followed it lost weight. Well, sure -- all of those 70s fad diets "worked" in that sense! Grapefruit and popcorn? Sure, you can lose weight on that! But their own numbers show that people regai…

"A Chemical Hunger" has multiple inaccuracies that have never been addressed or corrected. For example, they made up the "fact" that wild animals have been getting fatter out of thin air. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NRrbJJWnaSorrqvtZ/on-not-get...

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#105
post #82
post #28

I'm so disappointed by SMTM's trajectory. One of their key initial insights was that you don't need control groups for diet trials because essentially no one loses more than 10-20 lbs on a diet. You can just run the treatment group and, if you get lots of people losing more than that, you know you've got something. The flip side, of course, is that losing 10-20 lbs from a diet shouldn't be taken as proof that the die…

The difference is that people report that the potato diet is /easy/. No cravings, no endless hunger & having to force yourself to calorie count and stop eating when you hit your target. Eat as much as you like, when you like. That’s radically different from other diets.

The attrition rate was very high. The claim that it's easy was based on a few anecdotes, which aren't representative of the trial participants.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#106

I think this is a more compelling idea than people in the comments are giving it credit for > The problem is that you can easily come up with 100 different hypotheses for what’s going on. Ok, so you run 100 different studies to test each one. But studies take a long time to run — let’s say 6 months per study. Congratulations, you’ve just locked yourself into 50 years This is a major problem with science whenever you…

The main issue with this riff trial is that it doesn't test the most likely reason the potato diet works: that it's a very restrictive diet. Testing several different hypotheses barely helps at all if you don't test the overwhelmingly most likely one.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#107

Beautiful. We are in a golden era of citizen science, where access to knowledge, tools to connect, tools to process data, and the ability to communicate this is at an all time high. The kind of stuff you see on Youtube is amazing: people like AppliedScience achieving incredibly things in the garage, or recently NileRed took a nature paper [0] 1 step further and published it on youtube [1]). From a chemist/material sc…

I don't think mold_time is a good example of citizen science done right. They have said multiple false things and refused to address or correct their statements when other people pointed them out. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NRrbJJWnaSorrqvtZ/on-not-get... and https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/7iAABhWpcGeP5e6SB/it-s-proba...

It's been more than a year since I alerted them of the multiple falsehoods in A Chemical Hunger, repeatedly, and they haven't done anything about them.

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#108

I really enjoyed SMTM's "A Chemical Hunger" series[1]. But recently they've gone into weird fad-diet territory with their potato obsession. Like, they crow that the potato mono-diet "works," in that the people who successfully followed it lost weight. Well, sure -- all of those 70s fad diets "worked" in that sense! Grapefruit and popcorn? Sure, you can lose weight on that! But their own numbers show that people regai…

> But their own numbers show This is part that keeps this potato diet stuff interesting to me is that they've been extremely open with the numbers, from the very beginning. Most fad diets you have no idea how many people participated or the particulars of their habits during the participation period and there was no follow-up at all beyond the participation period. I don't think SMTM has "cracked" anything with the p…

I think it's worth pointing out that they've also said multiple false things in their blog posts, and have refused to address or fix them despite repeated requests over a period of more than one year. I think people should be careful before believing in things they read in SMTM's blog. See e.g. https://manifold.markets/Natalia/how-many-of-these-falsemisl...

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess I'm saying a "good" diet is one that can be sustained indefinitely. The fact that an extreme diet produces good results in the short term isn't surprising or interesting, because virtually nobody can (or should) follow an extreme diet for the rest of their life.

I don't think SMTM is proposing the potato diet as a permanent weight loss dilution, but think that there is something weird going on here that might result in a permanent dietary recommendation if understood. For example, we might find that the potassium is causing the weight loss and supplementing high doses of potassium could be something you do permanently.

There've been multiple studies that gave people potassium supplements and measured their body weight. (Primarily because potassium helps lower blood pressure). They haven't found that potassium causes weight loss. See my meta-analysis here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sR1T2Kb1X1fCLYeEE-U3Rwei...

Re: Potato Diet Riff Trial: Sign Up Now, Lol

#110
post #98
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atkins died of a head injury when he slipped on some ice, FYI

He also had congestive heart failure and his arteries were 30-40% blocked a year before his death. After he fell, he died during surgery to remove a blood clot in his brain. It's hard to say conclusively what caused his fall and ultimately his death, but we do know for a fact that he had heart problems. I don't believe this matters either way, though. You shouldn't be basing your understanding of what a healthy diet…

I'm merely pointing out that internet rumors about his death are false.

I have no idea if he followed his own diet or if his diet is healthy or not, but if you have references to studies this thread is sorely lacking.

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