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Chrome Removing Theora Support

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Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#101

Post by Tommstein »

iopq wrote: post #82
Sesse__ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

dav1d can decode 4K video in realtime on a pretty normal office-class PC. The real issue for is mobile.

Mobile doesn't have 4K screens, any phone released in the last few years can handle 1080p or 1440p AV1 I mean ANY phone. My phone is $160 from 2019 and it can play 1440p AV1 on youtube (with a few frame drops, but nothing noticeable), even though it has a 720p screen. I'd have to get my OnePlus 3 (2016) to stutter in 1440p note that the OnePlus 3 would stutter in h264 1440p as well, it's just old

> Mobile doesn't have 4K screens . . .

The Sony Xperia 1 series does (along with a headphone jack, microSD card support, notification LED, a hardware camera button, no hole in the screen for the front camera, etc.).

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#102

Post by jdietrich »

toast0 wrote: post #99
jdietrich wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're including a video codec in a phone app, you are almost certainly making a terrible mistake. Android and iOS have very comprehensive media APIs.

Is there one codec that's universally available on all supported versions of iOS and all versions of Android with significant use? With an encoder and a decoder? If not, something has to make up the difference, and that something is probably a server that can see all the content. Is it space efficient? (Compared to whatever you're prepared to license and run on the cpu) Not shipping a codec to save app size but sendi…

H.264 and VP8 are available essentially everywhere. Reasonably recent versions of Android and iOS (5.0 and 11, IIRC) include support for H.265 and VP9. The APIs on both platforms make it very easy to query available media formats, including hardware acceleration capabilities. Hardware acceleration is particularly important on mobile for power consumption reasons, so you should use it wherever possible.

If any app developer believes that they are better able to implement a secure codec than Apple or Google, I have a bridge to sell them.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#103

Post by jdietrich »

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #92
jdietrich wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're including a video codec in a phone app, you are almost certainly making a terrible mistake. Android and iOS have very comprehensive media APIs.

VLC is a mistake?

I said almost certainly making a terrible mistake. VLC has an extremely specific niche as "that one media app that plays literally anything in any format ever". You are almost certainly not developing that app. The overwhelming majority of apps have lots of very good reasons to rely on the platform APIs and no good reasons to eschew them.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#104

Post by toast0 »

jdietrich wrote: post #102
toast0 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there one codec that's universally available on all supported versions of iOS and all versions of Android with significant use? With an encoder and a decoder? If not, something has to make up the difference, and that something is probably a server that can see all the content. Is it space efficient? (Compared to whatever you're prepared to license and run on the cpu) Not shipping a codec to save app size but sendi…

H.264 and VP8 are available essentially everywhere. Reasonably recent versions of Android and iOS (5.0 and 11, IIRC) include support for H.265 and VP9. The APIs on both platforms make it very easy to query available media formats, including hardware acceleration capabilities. Hardware acceleration is particularly important on mobile for power consumption reasons, so you should use it wherever possible. If any app dev…

> If any app developer believes that they are better able to implement a secure codec than Apple or Google, I have a bridge to sell them.

Google isn't the only one providing system codecs on Android phones.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#105

Post by Nursie »

wwalexander wrote: post #98
Nursie wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did have a little sansa clip+ with rockbox a few years back, great little machine. I think I thought of it more as a historical format because Xiph have said that Opus supersedes it. I mostly stopped caring because of streaming some years ago now. I have my 'old' collection as a mix of mp3 and some ogg vorbis, dating from before the streaming era. These days I buy some CDs from bands I want to support, but listen t…

Just FYI, Apple Music supports automatic iCloud syncing of your personal music files that you drag into your library. Most of what I listen to is on streaming, but I can have non-streaming music, bootlegs, vinyl rips, Bandcamp purchases, and music only available on SoundCloud or YouTube (via yt-dlp) seamlessly alongside the streaming stuff. I’ve tried to explain how limiting any other streaming service is to friends,…

That's pretty cool, especially as my collection has a bunch of 90s-00s goth and indie bits and pieces which just aren't present on the streaming services.

This was something google play music was supposed to do as well, though that's dead now!

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#106

Post by wwalexander »

Nursie wrote: post #105
wwalexander wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI, Apple Music supports automatic iCloud syncing of your personal music files that you drag into your library. Most of what I listen to is on streaming, but I can have non-streaming music, bootlegs, vinyl rips, Bandcamp purchases, and music only available on SoundCloud or YouTube (via yt-dlp) seamlessly alongside the streaming stuff. I’ve tried to explain how limiting any other streaming service is to friends,…

That's pretty cool, especially as my collection has a bunch of 90s-00s goth and indie bits and pieces which just aren't present on the streaming services. This was something google play music was supposed to do as well, though that's dead now!

Yeah, I’m big into ‘90s UK hardcore where a lot of the classics were only released on some cassette or vinyl at a show back then so being able to include the obscure stuff I’ve procured is a hard requirement for me.

It makes sense that Google Play Music offered this, as it seems like adding a whole cloud-storage stack would be prohibitively complex and expensive for a company that isn’t running their own datacenters and/or already maintaining cloud storage as part of their business. Spotify supports local files and (apparently) lets you sync them iPod-style to your phone, but that’s where I draw the line in terms of music-collection-anachronism.

Random note: you do have to convert FLAC to ALAC if you want to add lossless files to Apple Music, but that’s an easy ffmpeg one-liner.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#107

Post by iopq »

Tommstein wrote: post #101
iopq wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile doesn't have 4K screens, any phone released in the last few years can handle 1080p or 1440p AV1 I mean ANY phone. My phone is $160 from 2019 and it can play 1440p AV1 on youtube (with a few frame drops, but nothing noticeable), even though it has a 720p screen. I'd have to get my OnePlus 3 (2016) to stutter in 1440p note that the OnePlus 3 would stutter in h264 1440p as well, it's just old

> Mobile doesn't have 4K screens . . . The Sony Xperia 1 series does (along with a headphone jack, microSD card support, notification LED, a hardware camera button, no hole in the screen for the front camera, etc.).

That's a high end device that can chew through 4K AV1 video like no tomorrow

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#108

Post by iopq »

Sesse__ wrote: post #84
iopq wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile doesn't have 4K screens, any phone released in the last few years can handle 1080p or 1440p AV1 I mean ANY phone. My phone is $160 from 2019 and it can play 1440p AV1 on youtube (with a few frame drops, but nothing noticeable), even though it has a 720p screen. I'd have to get my OnePlus 3 (2016) to stutter in 1440p note that the OnePlus 3 would stutter in h264 1440p as well, it's just old

It's not only about “handle”, it's about not eating through all of your battery before you're done watching the video. But no, “any” phone cannot reliably play 1080p AV1: https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of... “Overall AV1 real-time playback of 720p 30fps @ 2Mbps is feasible for low-end devices with 4 threads and 1080p 30fps @ 4Mbps is feasible for high-end and mid-range devices with 4 thread…

> it's about not eating through all of your battery before you're done watching the video

we're talking about hours of playtime before you run out of power, you can verify this on your own phone on youtube right now, go enable av1 and marvel at how YOUR phone can play these videos at 1080p

> Overall AV1 real-time playback of 720p 30fps @ 2Mbps is feasible for low-end devices with 4 threads and 1080p 30fps @ 4Mbps is feasible for high-end and mid-range devices with 4 threads using Dav1d decoder

Why only 4 threads? My phone from 2020 has 8 cores/8 threads and a 720p screen

https://www.gsmarena.com/oppo_a32-10454.php

So even if it doesn't handle some 1080p videos that I haven't tested, I should probably be watching them at 720p since that's all my phone can do.

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#109

Post by iopq »

qwerty456127 wrote: post #88
iopq wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, my laptop is intel 5000 series dual core, it can handle 720p AV1 video. I did get a few dropped frames, but I had to go into "Stats for nerds" to see that they dropped. When I switched to vp9, I still had some dropped frames anyway, so it's slow regardless My laptop doesn't have a 1080p screen, but trying 1080p it could do some videos better than others. in this one I only dropped 2 frames: https://www.yo…

> it can handle 720p AV1 video. I did get a few dropped frames I'm sorry for being ambiguous. I meant encoding, not decoding. In my opinion an average PC should be able to encode at least some minutes of video in reasonable time. Whatever, having to recourse to frame dropping (even in a negligible degree) means having 100% CPU or IO load already reached, doesn't it? 100% load on 720p playback sounds bizarre. I have b…

Encoding on a PC is an edge case, especially on software. Just hardware encode H264 at that point

> I have been accustomed to any video playback taking just a few percents on any old computer with Intel graphics.

it's using like 160% of a hyperthreaded core, so not even completely saturating a laptop from 2015 (8 years ago) - I don't know why it needs to drop frames though (single core too slow?)

Re: Chrome Removing Theora Support

#110

Post by Sesse__ »

iopq wrote: post #108
Sesse__ wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only about “handle”, it's about not eating through all of your battery before you're done watching the video. But no, “any” phone cannot reliably play 1080p AV1: https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of... “Overall AV1 real-time playback of 720p 30fps @ 2Mbps is feasible for low-end devices with 4 threads and 1080p 30fps @ 4Mbps is feasible for high-end and mid-range devices with 4 thread…

> it's about not eating through all of your battery before you're done watching the video we're talking about hours of playtime before you run out of power, you can verify this on your own phone on youtube right now, go enable av1 and marvel at how YOUR phone can play these videos at 1080p > Overall AV1 real-time playback of 720p 30fps @ 2Mbps is feasible for low-end devices with 4 threads and 1080p 30fps @ 4Mbps is…

> Why only 4 threads? My phone from 2020 has 8 cores/8 threads and a 720p screen

Of which half of them are small cores (Cortex-A53), which is pretty likely to throw a spanner in the works of the threading model. But hey, feel free to inform the dav1d authors that their dav1d paper benchmarked dav1d wrong.

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