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Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

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Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#101

Post by squarefoot »

r721 wrote: post #67
squarefoot wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, except Putin, all others are either dead or rendered inoffensive and likely be killed as well after the public forgets about them.

Just for clarity: I copy-pasted from a tweet, the list is longer on the actual chart from the poll: https://thumb.tildacdn.com/tild3833-6564-4031-b932-623365633...

Thanks, the link provided didn't work for me, but I forgot I've twitter and other online services redirected through libredirect and many of its endpoint stopped working a while ago. My fault.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#102

Post by petre »

RetroTechie wrote: post #70
r721 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One poll from May 2023 that I saw (the pollster is quite respectable): "When asked 300 days before presidential elections Russians say they would vote for: 30,2% Putin 2% Prigozhin 2% Navalny 1.3% Zhirinovsky (who is dead)" https://twitter.com/ABarbashin/status/1663222792605630464 https://russianfield.com/300days Not a lot, but still higher than other non-Putin candidates (except Prigozhin, who is now dead)

So, with Putin out of the picture he'd be leading the pack?

I'm sure the FSB has the likes of Naryshin, Patrushev or Bortnikov up their sleeve with Putin out of the picture. Putin was virtually unknown when he was first appoined as president. Win a Chechen war by throwing countless human and material resources at it, then you're wildly popular. If you come to think about it, Russia has only gained territories during Putin's leadership.

The political landscape in Russia is basically this: United Russia, commies and ultranationalists. All of these are pro war with the exception of a single party with a single member in the Duma, which opposes the war due to economic reasons.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#103

Post by loup-vaillant »

redwood wrote: post #92
0dayz wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what? Who's the bot? The post is about Russia and how they've now have arrested a lawyer because he's representing navalni. So then point to be where the UK is part of Russia, or maybe just maybe we should hold the topic of "unfairly arrested" where we can talk all day long about assange, navalni or anyone else. Besides assange is no lawyer, a better whataboutism would be trumps lawyers who are either arrested hav…

That would make sense if you wanted to sow discord on the right. The post here does so for those that lean left. All of the above serve to weaken a sense that there's a difference between the autocratic China-Russia axis and the west.

Toplevel comment author here.

My main point was to remind that we too are at risk of suffering the same kind of authoritarianism we point our fingers to. Russia is currently being very blatant in how it uses trumped up charges to make an example of someone and discourage further opposition, but I felt obligated to remind everyone that they’re not the only ones.

The West does it less, and it does it more subtly, but everywhere I look (mostly Europe) there’s a substantial increase in the use of authoritarian practices. We’re not immune to full blown authoritarianism making a come back.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#104

Post by voidr »

0dayz wrote: post #95
redwood wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make sense if you wanted to sow discord on the right. The post here does so for those that lean left. All of the above serve to weaken a sense that there's a difference between the autocratic China-Russia axis and the west.

Oh definitely, it's more annoying than anything. I can sympathize with genuine causes but cheap potshots like whataboutism is just such a cynical means.

Pointing out hypocrisy is not "whataboutism" it's just simply pointing out hypocrisy.

This "whataboutism" was invented as a way to avoid uncomfortable comparisons, you can find a lot of stories in the west where if you replace Countryname with Russia and the story would sound plausible, here you go: "Russian whistleblower who uncovered that the Russian government spied on all of its people has fled to the US to avoid being imprisoned in Russia", talking about Snowden of course.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#105

Post by jagrsw »

redwood wrote: post #94
jagrsw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Navalny's courage in facing political persecution is commendable, it's important to contextualize his earlier views to understand him fully. Before his imprisonment and prior to the escalation of the Russo-Ukrainian conflict, Navalny held positions that some might describe as nationalistic. For example, his stance on Crimea has been ambivalent, with statements that sometimes tacitly accept Russia's annexation o…

As much as what you say is factually accurate, I think it's important to contextualize within the broader Russian consciousness.. the same could be said about almost any American. Just as Americans have certain exceptionalism all the way down to their bones, Russia is similar. The idea that a Russian politician wouldn't at times speak in ways that harken back to that core should not be used as something that dismisse…

  > In order to have any chance of successfully rallying of people you do need
  > to appeal to some of their base instincts
I understand your point about the role of nationalism in Russian politics. However, it's crucial for us in the proverbial "West" to have a nuanced understanding of Navalny, because it's too easy to equate "political victimhood" == "purity of intentions".

I'm not questioning his courage or opposition to Putin; my aim is to highlight that his political ideology isn't straightforward.

Should he unexpectedly assume presidency, his past statements make it unclear whether he'd reverse Russia's actions in Ukraine, (but there would be a chance).

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#106

Post by jnsaff2 »

thriftwy wrote: post #58
ftl64 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has allowed the Russian state to treat him with such a degree of cruelty is the war with Ukraine. News of his arrest, imprisonment, and treatment in jail were overshadowed by those of another airstrike on a civilian population. Not to mention, it sent a clear message to internal opposition that those willing to act against the state would face not just legal hurdles but also tyranny and physical violence.

[flagged]

There are plenty of photos of russians bombing civilians, hospitals, Mariupol drama theater had "children" written in letters so big that they can be seen from space. Still bombed. Just few weeks ago a funeral was hit with a rocket, 50+ civilians dead. Let alone the constant attacks on civilian power and port infrastructure trying to freeze and famine not only Ukraine.

This is just a completely ignorant take that the Israelis are somehow worse than russians.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#107

Post by orwin »

jimmymmcgill wrote: post #83
walteweiss wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of that, the guy is literally a racist, if anyone cares to explore his past. But he’s all hero these days, because he wants to be in charge of Russian regime instead of Putin. He’s portrayed as a fighter for freedom, while actually right now, any Ukrainian soldier does more to protect the values of democracy. By literally fighting tooth and nail for it. But nobody seems to care about a Ukrainian soldier as muc…

Was waiting for this comment. Yes he did (have to) ally with nationalists in the past. He did say negative things about migrants. Nevertheless, he stated multiple times since then that it's not his views anymore. Speaking of racism and nationalism, let's be honest Euromaidan in 2014 would never succeed without the support of the Right Sector. This type of brutal force was missing in Belarus 2020 protests.

It still have support from both a nationalist right and an internationalist left. Let's not forget the only anarchist regime that beat out an Army was Ukrainian, and that has a certain appeal to the left. I have three friends and I know that a complete antifa cell went there (some came back, war seems terrible even if you 'just' want to volonteer at a hospital). Regardless, it's followed by the entire political spectrum.

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#108

Post by loup-vaillant »

ben_w wrote: post #100
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. On the other hand, not even his fellow journalists do anything... They could at least do a weekly article, "assange is still in jail", because in reality, you're either "just a reporter" (who writes articles about what someone, usually from the government, said) or you could actually do some meaningful investigative work, and end up like him. I know that corporate mainstream media reports just what their owners…

If I'd been the editor of the Guardian newspaper on the day the British security services ordered the destruction of the hard drive with the Snowden archives, I would've made the next day's front page almost fully blacked-out, except for perhaps a handful of words across the whole thing reading: > ■■■ no ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ free ■ ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ ■■■ press ■■■■ ■ ■■ ■■■ ■ ■■■ or something else equally snarky. But Snowden still…

In my opinion, the major difference between Assange and Snowden is the respective threats they represent: Snowden was a one and done deal. Get the stuff out, blow the whistle, done. Worst case someone might be encouraged to imitate him.

Wikileaks, and Assange as its figurehead, are a different deal. They enable whistleblowing, and as journalists they can report over and over again. Whistleblowers typically whistle only once. Journalists can re-whistle constantly.

Most importantly though, journalists who actually protect their sources (hopefully that’s a tautology) can forward illegally obtained information and shield their sources from any legal repercussions. Kind of the whole point of source protection, but even Western governments don’t like whistleblowers evading the law. They’d rather know who blew the whistle, just to make sure it’s never blown inappropriately. Because inappropriately blown whistles are so much worse than inappropriately unblown whistles I guess?

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#109

Post by orwin »

ben_w wrote: post #100
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. On the other hand, not even his fellow journalists do anything... They could at least do a weekly article, "assange is still in jail", because in reality, you're either "just a reporter" (who writes articles about what someone, usually from the government, said) or you could actually do some meaningful investigative work, and end up like him. I know that corporate mainstream media reports just what their owners…

If I'd been the editor of the Guardian newspaper on the day the British security services ordered the destruction of the hard drive with the Snowden archives, I would've made the next day's front page almost fully blacked-out, except for perhaps a handful of words across the whole thing reading: > ■■■ no ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ free ■ ■■■■ ■■ ■■■■ ■■■ press ■■■■ ■ ■■ ■■■ ■ ■■■ or something else equally snarky. But Snowden still…

Let's be honest, unlike Snowden, Assange really come as an asshole, and that really undermined the public opinion.

I know the 'rape' bit was probably political, but he seems like the type of guy who would totally do that, and I think he actually did considering his lawyer responses. The fact that the woman brought it to court however, that's the point that is suspicious to me. A consequent fraction (at least 10% imho) of the male population could be condemned for the same stuff, dirty pigs. And the fact that it was a successful trial. My sister was actually raped by her employer, and advices from both the police and lawyers were "you can't bring that to court, it's a 'he said she said' situation, you should just make a report and 'hope another girl get raped'" (rough translation of what the 'helpful' policeman said).

Re: Alexei Navalny's lawyers are arrested

#110

Post by loup-vaillant »

ben_w wrote: post #99
squarefoot wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, he's someone who is being detained just to make a point and discourage others. Had he really known something of vital importance about the US or any other allied country national security, he'd have been tortured 5 minutes after his arrest.

He was initially detained for extradition to Sweden on sexual offence charges. The security on that was so light he was able to skip his (expensive, donor-paid) bail. The intelligence people were annoyed with him back then, hence all the claims of even that arrest being "a conspiracy" sounding at least slightly plausible, and yet, even then, they were demonstrably so uninterested that he could walk to an embassy and…

Still, two things bother me:

Wasn’t there a way for Sweden to promise him not to extradite him to the US?

I’ve heard he wasn’t even heard by Swedish justice, even though he offered to be heard remotely (from England), and such a thing was done in similar cases.

Solving one or the other would have showed with much more certainty whether he was actually trying to flee the sexual charges or not. Though perhaps the Swedish prosecutor just wanted to maximise the chances of having him in Swedish custody.

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