The YouTube channel Engineering Explained has an excellent video regarding why hydrogen is not a practical replacement for gasoline/petrol/diesel in a traditional internal combustion engine:
Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#102please feel free to vote me down into oblivion because, you know, "I'm wrong"... But I would prefer a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle over a battery-electric for a number of reasons. The first is theoretical recharge/refuel times, but the second is firefighter rescue personnel safety. BEVs are here-and-now technology though, and I don't oppose them, it's just I plan to wait until hydrogen technology matures and reaches de…
If you're worried about firefighters, I'm not sure why you think hydrogen would be the solution. Hydrogen fires are invisible to the human eye, and carry an extremely high risk of catastrophic explosion. While a lithium fire isn't great, it's more the issue of "this is going to ruin the roadway that it's burning on" than "the firefighter is going to die trying to put it out". https://www.osha.gov/green-jobs/hydrogen/…
The firefighters will mainly sit and watch while H2 gets vented or burns off. A lithium battery fire is much more worse, not even mentioning the smoke.
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
My understanding is liquid hydrogen could be a contender for a green jet fuel alternative. Batteries are too heavy.
I think we'll see a synthetic version of jet fuel before we see a hydrogen powered plane in mass production. Far less trouble to store and use and much higher energy density, also works with existing airframes (fuel tanks!) and engines.
Plus it works with the FAA and with the existing expertise in the Airline industry.
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#104Not saying the oil sector is powerless by any means, and I guess maybe they're going for regulatory capture, but this is a non-starter from an economic reality perspective so I'm not too worried about it. The train is well out of the station for electric vehicles. I believe every car maker (save 1 that I know about) is fully committed to 100% electrified vehicles in the not-too-distant future. I feel like eventually…
All it takes is a new pump at existing gas stations and what becomes more compelling to the consumer flips overnight. Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken. It seems like there's a lot lot less inertia to get consumers over that hurdle than the EV hurdle, where charge times are long and convenient chargers not a guarantee in…
> Same cultural process of fueling up at the same place you've always fueled up in about the same amount of time as its always taken.
I don't know that people's cultural attraction to fueling at the gas station is high at all.
After we got an EV I realised how much I had actually disliked filling the car. Smelly, every time an in your face reminder of the fossil fuels you are burning. Having to go in an queue. Having to wait and jostle for a spot with the filler hoses on the correct side for my vehicle. Dodgy characters milling around. Unable to use cellphone and take calls. Possibility of being involved in holdups/antisocial behaviour.
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#105please feel free to vote me down into oblivion because, you know, "I'm wrong"... But I would prefer a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle over a battery-electric for a number of reasons. The first is theoretical recharge/refuel times, but the second is firefighter rescue personnel safety. BEVs are here-and-now technology though, and I don't oppose them, it's just I plan to wait until hydrogen technology matures and reaches de…
Well..you are wrong. Firefighters are trained to understand battery fires. Here's one of the many online courses they take to do it. Perhaps if you take it you would gain peace of mind on the subject.
https://fsri.org/research-update/online-training-available-s...
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#106They've been doing it for twenty years, hydrogen allows maintaining a distribution network and *most of all* to keep using fossil fuels to generate it
I think that it is just as important for the oil industry to make it look like alternatives are being tried, but they just don't work out, so that the status quo seems more acceptable.
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#107Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…
Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...
Engineering Explained occasionally discusses hydrogen energy density: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjKwSF9gT8
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#108Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…
Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...
They definitely fly better than a lead balloon (batteries).
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#109Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…
Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.
“We don’t have the infrastructure” is a temporary problem. The same could have been said about gas stations and the electrical grid capacity needed for widespread air conditioning.
Weight isn’t such a crazy thing either. The Tesla Model Y long range weighs 900 pounds more than a Honda CRV. It’s a lot, but the most popular car in America is the Ford F-150 which weighs about the same as a Model Y at the low end.
The weight efficiency can only improve from here and more charging infrastructure and faster recharge times will mean less demand for long range variants. This is ideal for electrics because shorter frequent stops are more time efficient for EVs while for gas vehicles it’s the opposite.
The great thing about electricity is that it’s even easier to transport and generate than liquid fuel storage. Generation can be centralized with a diverse set of energy sources.
Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification
#110Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…
Batteries go bad over a rather short period of time and are incredibly expensive too. They’re basically currently infeasible as a mode of transport without _a lot_ of trade offs. Compare that to a tank for fuel, which is comparatively minuscule in cost and basically never goes bad. I don’t think electrical is as scalable as liquid fuel and I’m not convinced it ever will be, especially if it’s continued to be made by exotic materials.