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People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#101

Post by throwaway290 »

ffgjgf1 wrote: post #98
throwaway290 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. "Post WW2" describes current modern Japanese culture, not its root. The root goes way back to hundreds/thousands of years BC, they continuously lived on those exact islands and spoke a similar language all that time. Unlike US or Canada which are a new amalgamation of English/French/Spanish/German/Jewish/AA/Native/whatever cultures without any single root. Not to say US or Canadian culture is worse…

> not its root You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old. It would be worth about as much. But yeah I agree with you in the sense that US/Canada are constantly affected by a constant influx of people belonging to different cultures. Had there been barely any immigration after ~1800 American culture would…

> You might as well say that US culture has its roots in ancient Greece or Rome, or Reformation age Europe and claim it’s hundreds or even thousands years old.

No. Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Slavs, Turks, Arabs, Mongols etc, different peoples have their respective roots for sure, but those roots are elsewhere. Once you move across the ocean and mingle with a bunch of others coming from radically different backgrounds and histories, different mutually unintelligible languages and incompatible religions it's a completely different story than if you live at the same locality, speak the same language and carry broadly similar values and beliefs as N generations and thousands of years back. Except for first nations, people of US and Canada are still very much guests on their soil if you compare those timescales (actually even first nations may have settled Canada a bit later than Japanese settled Japan by skimming Wikipedia but that I'm not sure). From inside one of those new cultures (who are cool and unique in their own ways, sure) it can be easy to miss the significance.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#102

Post by quickthrower2 »

RestlessMind wrote: post #93
Gud wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory, isn't the problem actually that older people are unable to work? What if we are on the brink of reversing the aging process, thus bringing the elderly back into the work force? OK, I understand it sounds a bit dystopian. I'm just thinking there might be more solutions to consider than "make more children". Automation, robotic assistance, age reversal etc.

> I'm just thinking there might be more solutions to consider than "make more children". Automation, robotic assistance, age reversal etc. Age reversal is interesting. If that happens and everyone can be in their 20's forever, nothing like it. But automation or robots? Close your eyes and imagine a town where the youngest person is 68yo with only robots to take care of the entire town. That scenario seems fucking dys…

Dystopian… until you are 68 yourself then it sounds pretty cool

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#103

Post by ddd00001 »

Tor3 wrote: post #80
ddd00001 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you just said "not impossible", then admitted that culture would change with influx of migrants.

I didn't first realize that you were commenting my post - but I did say two things: 1) There's no such thing as a culture which doesn't change. Culture is a living thing. It changes, even if you never have a single immigrant. My parent's culture wasn't the same as mine, even back when there were no immigrants and hardly anyone coming from elsewhere in the country. 2) I also clarified in a later post that to me the cu…

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#104

Post by ddd00001 »

Tor3 wrote: post #80
ddd00001 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but you just said "not impossible", then admitted that culture would change with influx of migrants.

I didn't first realize that you were commenting my post - but I did say two things: 1) There's no such thing as a culture which doesn't change. Culture is a living thing. It changes, even if you never have a single immigrant. My parent's culture wasn't the same as mine, even back when there were no immigrants and hardly anyone coming from elsewhere in the country. 2) I also clarified in a later post that to me the cu…

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#105

Post by ddd00001 »

Tor3 wrote: post #67
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heterogenous cultures all end up looking kind of the same. Chaotic, disorderly, no common rules, little common ground. Like New York City or London or Toronto. Great for people who like novelty. But utterly different from Tokyo, or Salt Lake City, or other places where cultural homogeneity enables a sophisticated set of shared rules and norms.

I don't know about that. In my experience, with smaller places I'm familiar with, the cultural input only enriches, there's no degradation (though I am of course aware of certain areas of certain countries where they failed to handle immigration correctly and created isolated ghettos - that never goes well. But it does not have to be that way). "sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's…

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#106

Post by ddd00001 »

Tor3 wrote: post #67
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heterogenous cultures all end up looking kind of the same. Chaotic, disorderly, no common rules, little common ground. Like New York City or London or Toronto. Great for people who like novelty. But utterly different from Tokyo, or Salt Lake City, or other places where cultural homogeneity enables a sophisticated set of shared rules and norms.

I don't know about that. In my experience, with smaller places I'm familiar with, the cultural input only enriches, there's no degradation (though I am of course aware of certain areas of certain countries where they failed to handle immigration correctly and created isolated ghettos - that never goes well. But it does not have to be that way). "sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's…

Lee Kuan Yew's whole thesis re: Singapore was that multicultural societies need strict laws and punishments for those that step out of line because people don't naturally look out for each other. He learned this from going back to the UK in the 60s and seeing how social trust had degraded due to immigration.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#107

Post by ddd00001 »

Tor3 wrote: post #97
rayiner wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1) What does "sophisticated" mean in this context? What is a "sophisticated" rule, or a "sophisticated norm"? The rules and norms are complex and encompass a wider and deeper range of behaviors. > 2) If anything, "a [..] set of shared rules and norms" sounds like an environment which tries to enforce a strict template for how to behave and act and do. If that's really the case then it to me would be a terrible plac…

I most definitely don't see myself as anti-social, quite the opposite if anything. I would like to see a more specific example of what you mean by sophisticated rules and norms. What would a real-life example be? I still don't get it, so I would be happy to learn what you mean by this.

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Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#108

Post by justin66 »

ddd00001 wrote: post #106
Tor3 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. In my experience, with smaller places I'm familiar with, the cultural input only enriches, there's no degradation (though I am of course aware of certain areas of certain countries where they failed to handle immigration correctly and created isolated ghettos - that never goes well. But it does not have to be that way). "sophisticated set of shared rules and norms" - I don't know what that's…

Lee Kuan Yew's whole thesis re: Singapore was that multicultural societies need strict laws and punishments for those that step out of line because people don't naturally look out for each other. He learned this from going back to the UK in the 60s and seeing how social trust had degraded due to immigration.

Singapore is a counterexample to the grandparent post. It's very much a "heterogenous" culture, if the word "heterogenous" has any meaning at all, with four (!) official languages and a lot of immigration. It could not be described as "chaotic" or "disorderly."

The unsubtle explanation from someone who is not a huge Singapore fan (or from someone who is?) might be that this is simply the power of well-engineered, highly authoritarian government. But it's certainly not about choosing homogeneity or eschewing immigration.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#109

Post by I_am_uncreative »

skissane wrote: post #59
I_am_uncreative wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the US and Canada are the only two first world countries not slated for long-term population decline due to immigration. Japan is going to have to be more welcoming of non-Japanese people.

> Yeah, the US and Canada are the only two first world countries not slated for long-term population decline due to immigration. Australia's immigration rate, on a per capita basis, is more than double that of the US, and somewhat ahead of Canada's. [0] It has a lower total fertility rate [1] than the US (1.73 for Australia vs 1.84 for US), but still a higher TFR than Canada (1.57), and I suspect having double the im…

And yet, Australia's population is slated to decline, while the US is not.

Re: People aged 80 and over top 10% of Japan's population for first time

#110

Post by I_am_uncreative »

throwaway290 wrote: post #10
I_am_uncreative wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the US and Canada are the only two first world countries not slated for long-term population decline due to immigration. Japan is going to have to be more welcoming of non-Japanese people.

None of the countries you mention have ages old strong own culture to preserve really (except first nations but for various reasons their culture is not US or Canada culture). So Japan's policy is not unreasonable. You can become a proper Japanese if you want to (are willing to culturally integrate), it's just that not many people do. Without it you'd be trading off death of country for death of culture. Contrast to…

> You can become a proper Japanese if you want to

I'm really not sure about that. I'm a white man with red hair, I'm pretty sure I'd always be "otherized" in Japan, as would most westerners.

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