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Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

textual.textualize.io

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Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#101

Post by ilyagr »

bArray wrote: post #3

The idea is pretty cool, but I'm unsure of the mix of TUI and animation. Once you start going down the path of animations, layout, fonts, etc, you start just reinventing the web - but with extra steps. Personally I would cut complex animations (i.e. sub-character) and only have a single size monospace font. I would rip out CSS and go for maximum compatibility. (If something exists like that, please let me know!) Anot…

Re the telnet idea:

You might enjoy various https://charm.sh/ apps, especially https://github.com/charmbracelet/wish. They seem to prefer SSH to telnet though.

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#102

Post by cxr »

rollcat wrote: post #95
cxr wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's all the things that make macOS UI so good Mac OS doesn't have access keys for the menu bar. Either someone assigns a keyboard shortcut, which you can use, or you have to use the key combo that focuses the menu bar and then arrow through the menus. The first time I got a Mac, I thought this was insane. When I sold my MacBook years later, I still thought it was insane, because it is. In contrast, the IBM Common…

> Mac OS doesn't have access keys for the menu bar. Either someone assigns a keyboard shortcut, which you can use, or you have to use the key combo that focuses the menu bar and then arrow through the menus. Try Cmd+Shift+/ (aka Cmd+?) and typing a few letters of the command you want to invoke. It's pretty much the same mechanism that Emacs uses (C-x followed by the command name). I'll admit it's not very discoverabl…

> Macs don't have an "Alt" key

O[1] RLY?[2][3] (Whether they have one or not is beside the point.)

> more importantly, CUA dates back to 1987, which is predated by the original 1984 Macintosh - which by that time already had established quite a few conventions of its own. I wouldn't blame it on Apple that they've stuck with their own conventions

Irrelevant. The Mac OS isn't the same as the one that shipped in 1984. It certainly didn't have Spotlight then, for example. Supporting CUA-style menu access keys would be an additive change—the same way that importing the benefits of the UNIX userspace by way of NeXTStep was additive (but far less invasive than that one); no one said to stop supporting other menu access methods.

1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Modifier_Keys....>

2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_Keyboard_(A104...>

3. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_iMac_Keyboard_...>

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#103

Post by rollcat »

cxr wrote: post #102
rollcat wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mac OS doesn't have access keys for the menu bar. Either someone assigns a keyboard shortcut, which you can use, or you have to use the key combo that focuses the menu bar and then arrow through the menus. Try Cmd+Shift+/ (aka Cmd+?) and typing a few letters of the command you want to invoke. It's pretty much the same mechanism that Emacs uses (C-x followed by the command name). I'll admit it's not very discoverabl…

> Macs don't have an "Alt" key O[1] RLY?[2][3] (Whether they have one or not is beside the point.) > more importantly, CUA dates back to 1987, which is predated by the original 1984 Macintosh - which by that time already had established quite a few conventions of its own. I wouldn't blame it on Apple that they've stuck with their own conventions Irrelevant. The Mac OS isn't the same as the one that shipped in 1984. I…

> Supporting CUA-style menu access keys would be an additive change [...].

As I said, Macs don't have an Alt key; there's an Opt key, which (depending on context) can work like AltGr or Alt (the latter usually when combined with Cmd). You can't draw a 1:1 comparison with a PC keyboard, because they're just different things.

Overloading Opt to access menus is not an additive change. Opt-e in my keyboard layout produces "ę"; Opt-x produces "ź". You'd take away my ability to type in my native language.

Introducing new modifier keys (say OptGr+e would produce "ę" but Opt-e would access the menu) would be a drastic and unwelcome change. I would equate it with changing the meaning of "Shift" when pressing number keys. It's something you just don't do to your users, no matter how much more sensible it appears to you.

Again, it's all platform conventions. When you travel to Italy, you don't bitch that nobody speaks German - even if German is standardized, and officially spoken in three different countries.

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#104

Post by cxr »

rollcat wrote: post #103
cxr wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Macs don't have an "Alt" key O[1] RLY?[2][3] (Whether they have one or not is beside the point.) > more importantly, CUA dates back to 1987, which is predated by the original 1984 Macintosh - which by that time already had established quite a few conventions of its own. I wouldn't blame it on Apple that they've stuck with their own conventions Irrelevant. The Mac OS isn't the same as the one that shipped in 1984. I…

> Supporting CUA-style menu access keys would be an additive change [...]. As I said, Macs don't have an Alt key; there's an Opt key, which (depending on context) can work like AltGr or Alt (the latter usually when combined with Cmd). You can't draw a 1:1 comparison with a PC keyboard, because they're just different things. Overloading Opt to access menus is not an additive change. Opt-e in my keyboard layout produce…

> As I said, Macs don't have an Alt key

1. Wrong.

2. It doesn't even matter whether they have one or not—it's irrelevant.

3. You're strawmanning me so hard. Please knock it off. It's annoying.

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#105

Post by [deleted] »

msla wrote: post #74
slmjkdbtl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory GUI is a superset of TUI, there's nothing inherently bad or unproductive about GUI. You can argue in practice there exist a lot of unproductive GUI that's worse than a TUI client, but I think it's the problem of the designer, not the tool. Also there are some areas that's universally acknowledged to be better suited for GUI, anything that requires visualization like video editing, image editing, 3d modeling…

> In theory GUI is a superset of TUI Only if the TUI is non-scriptable. That's the big bait-and-switch possible here: Is it a TUI in that the menu system is made out of text, or is it a TUI in that it's a command line with a scripting language and the ability to create new commands out of composable pieces? Just saying "Textual User Interface" doesn't disambiguate the two.

[deleted]

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#106

Post by traverseda »

We've come full circle, textual is basically react for python (including stuff like css) and now it's on the web!

Personally I don't like the react way of doing things, but seeing as there aren't really any good TUI libraries I suppose I'll make do.

Re: Textual Web: TUIs for the Web

#110

Post by gcr »

chinchilla2020 wrote: post #71
willm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the two use cases are mutually exclusive. You can have that keyboard driven muscle-memory workflow, while keeping things discoverable for users who haven't committed everything to memory.

AutoCAD is a great example of something that gives both options. New users tend to get really involved with the buttons, but gradually shift to full text control over years. Obviously in CAD sometimes you cannot enter coordinates and must grab the mouse... but it's still faster if you minimize use of the mouse.

I've found Fusion 360 to be highly mouse-driven with frustratingly few keyboard shortcuts available. It feels borderline unusable without having one hand on the mouse at all times to select various operations, and the faux-pie menus are too contextual to be a great replacement.

Tools like Plasticity CAD¹ or Blender feel way more keyboard-friendly in this space.

[1]: https://www.plasticity.xyz/

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