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How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

nippon.com

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Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#101

Post by nonethewiser »

itake wrote: post #78
remarkEon wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A…

My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force. As a man, I’m looking for an independent woman with a good income, because I don’t want to get gutted in a divorce. I’d love to be a SAHD, but it’s difficult for me to find single women with comparable income.

> My sister is in that boat of not making finances work. Her job pays too well for her to leave the work force.

But her finances arent the problem here. Its how high expenses are. Her job could pay 150k/yr or 20k/yr but the situation is the same when she quits. Its good that she at least makes enough money that it justifies working if she wants to.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#102

Post by pyuser583 »

markus_zhang wrote: post #92

Chinese people are seeing the same decline of birth and marriage. Part of that contributes to better life but I'd say the majority is because of Capitalism. This form of Capitalism is initiated by the government so there is not much to check its power. Essentially, if you look at housing, cost of education and cost of medical services, you will understand why middle class in China does not want to give birth to child…

China also had, and still has, a child limit policy that violates human rights.

Not to mention the genocide currently in progress. Genocides don’t help fertility, I’m guessing.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#103

Post by drak0n1c »

remarkEon wrote: post #61
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

>and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. I don't think this is quite right, and your second paragraph is kind of alluding to the underlying issue. I think it's more that there isn't a pathway for women to drop out of the workforce permanently and revert to a single-income household. A…

I agree. A large contingent of women want to be mothers without the stress and distraction of workplaces, but it is increasingly uneconomical to do so. So instead we resort to daycare, but with how expensive that is there is a natural cap on having more than 1-2 kids during your most fertile years. No surprise the fertility rate is less than 2.

Regarding benefits - I don't know about South Korea, but where I grew up in Hawaii some of my peers or their parents purposefully had kids out of wedlock to collect the additional welfare payments that single parents were eligible for, even though they otherwise were still partnered and even living together. However, with less practical need to maintain a family over the long run, parenting quality and outcomes suffered and atomization increased. A "Great Society" era benefit intended to help those caught in tragic edge cases ended up being a perverse incentive for those in the next generation who may have avoided that situation otherwise.

While doing payments for married mothers instead may have been a net-outcome better design in retrospect, there is an opposite possibility of perverse incentives for toxic families to stay intact. I don't know if marriage-agnostic UBI for parents is the best answer, though it would at least balance the currently misplaced incentives. In an ideal world it would be better to first resolve current inflated costs by making it easier and cheaper on the supply side to provide housing, healthcare, and education.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#104

Post by hungryforcodes »

spacemadness wrote: post #35
hungryforcodes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did mention that a conflictual approach to relationships-- as opposed to a collaborative one -- created problems for both men and women in this age group to find partnerships.

You very clearly stated this conflict was caused by “feminist politics.”

Which as described to me was interpreted as conflictual.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#106

Post by throwawaysleep »

WanderPanda wrote: post #56
orochimaaru wrote: post #46

I think all these studies skirt very gingerly around a big problem. Stressful work culture, lack of support for families (includes high real-estate costs, long commute times, lack of sick leave, etc.) and most importantly a path for women (and men - but its mostly women) who drop out of the workforce and want to get back in once the children are older and more independent. Child rearing takes a group of people not ju…

How did we end up at a point where creating life (literally) is a „not good enough reason“?

Was it ever considered such a great joy or just another of life's many tasks?

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#107

Post by markus_zhang »

pyuser583 wrote: post #102
markus_zhang wrote: post #92

Chinese people are seeing the same decline of birth and marriage. Part of that contributes to better life but I'd say the majority is because of Capitalism. This form of Capitalism is initiated by the government so there is not much to check its power. Essentially, if you look at housing, cost of education and cost of medical services, you will understand why middle class in China does not want to give birth to child…

China also had, and still has, a child limit policy that violates human rights. Not to mention the genocide currently in progress. Genocides don’t help fertility, I’m guessing.

The limit is basically gone now so at least that is a non issue.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#109

Post by throwawaysleep »

pyuser583 wrote: post #102
markus_zhang wrote: post #92

Chinese people are seeing the same decline of birth and marriage. Part of that contributes to better life but I'd say the majority is because of Capitalism. This form of Capitalism is initiated by the government so there is not much to check its power. Essentially, if you look at housing, cost of education and cost of medical services, you will understand why middle class in China does not want to give birth to child…

China also had, and still has, a child limit policy that violates human rights. Not to mention the genocide currently in progress. Genocides don’t help fertility, I’m guessing.

China now has a 3 kid cap.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592

Their birthrate is 1. The cap is not a barrier anymore.

Re: How South Korea’s birth rate dropped below Japan’s

#110

Post by rasz »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #24

I see little emphasis in this article on real estate or rents. Sure, the issues they raise are contributors, but housing issues are foundational for many of the other problems they spend a lot of time on in the article. SK is more land-constrained than Japan. We're seeing family formation being negatively impacted in many areas of the world now due to high real estate prices. It's particularly acute in SK: https://ww…

There are two modes of renting in Korea, one of them involves you paying Full market value to renter as a deposit! In theory you will get all of your money back at the end of lease. Renter invests this money into something, hopefully not another rental property seeing as they just had a mini real-estate crash. https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/why-south-koreas-housing...
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