Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation • Hacker News Board

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#101

Post by BizarroLand » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:35 PM UTC

QuantumGood wrote: post #76

thenerdhead wrote: post #35

You don't need to buy a $750 USD device to do this either. You can get away with a very cheap TENS device that has ear clips such as: https://www.tenspros.com/intensity-micro-combo-tens-microcur... And then look at a study like https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7199464/table/T... to determine what settings to use for your condition.

Easier to read version of the study summaries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ibnJr6MqhHfpkXXzsKOD...

Part of me is interested, part of me is horrified by the idea of DIY electroshock therapy.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#102

Post by amatecha » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:35 PM UTC

davzie wrote: post #25

theshrike79 wrote: post #4

I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack symptoms. When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the esophagus through the diaphragm. So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs again…

I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers and these just exacerbated the issue over time. Eventually after much reading I read that without enough stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can't tell you…

I know this sounds like a hack, but did you ever try taking some apple cider vinegar in water after eating? It's a lifesaver for me, near-instant cure for lack of stomach acid. Has to be the ACV "with mother", the cloudy stuff in it. Maybe no longer relevant if you're already taking Betain HCL (I thought that was a medication at first lol), but I definitely have to mention it in case you may have a natural medication-free alternative available that you may not have tried. Don't take my word for it or anything though, def read up on it if you're interested about it!

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#103

Post by davzie » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:36 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #83

davzie wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds really awful. Sorry to hear that! I wonder if this would have happened many years ago before modern agriculture and all the awful stuff that is present in our foods. I wonder if our environments are causing this lack of stomach acid / enzymes in people. This can’t surely have been happening when we were hunter / gatherers!

> This can’t surely have been happening when we were hunter / gatherers! Or it did, and those people died and we no longer have any record of them. That's entirely possible, I suppose.

That implies might be a genetic disposition which would also imply anyone suffering today maybe shouldn’t be here if that mutation died out. I dunno, I’m a software engineer not a geneticist but I just enjoy the thought experiment

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#104

Post by digging » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:37 PM UTC

adriand wrote: post #69

blueyes wrote: post #56

For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious, this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus ne…

This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological impacts. I don’t listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a fascinating although very untested - but, testab…

Haven't listened, but I think I understand where Linden was coming from, even if it's unnecessarily harsh. The idea that "you can breathe this way and get this effect" can be true and can come from folk wisdom, but they ascribe wrong reasoning to it which makes it mysticism. The reasoning is what's "bullshit". It's like saying "I tie my shoes tight every morning to honor the shoe gods or else they'll untie my laces." Well actually, you're right to tie your laces tight, but only because that's how laces work on a physical level.

The chakras thing, or any other mystical model, is only a low-resolution model. It's useful to point you to a correct belief, but we have to be careful not to get too invested in wrong reasoning. Or else you end up with a system of beliefs which may be mostly wrong - ie, "If my X chakra does this for me, I am sure my Y chakra does that for me," - when what you may be looking for is a completely different phenomenon.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#105

Post by davzie » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:38 PM UTC

jconley wrote: post #86

davzie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers and these just exacerbated the issue over time. Eventually after much reading I read that without enough stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can't tell you…

I'll have to try this! I have reflux or heartburn daily if I don't do things right. A few things help me. 1) Don't have an empty stomach. My stomach goes crazy. 2) Don't overeat. Large portions cause it nearly every time. 3) Don't eat anything within 2 hours of bed time. So, basically, if I eat small meals often I am usually fine. And then there are trigger foods like too much coffee and alcohol and red sauces, and g…

I promise you, I had all this. If you try these supplements I mentioned you will never think about it again. The downside is you end up putting on some weight whilst you get over the fun of being able to eat whatever you want again :)

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#106

Post by davzie » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 7:53 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #102

davzie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers and these just exacerbated the issue over time. Eventually after much reading I read that without enough stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can't tell you…

I know this sounds like a hack, but did you ever try taking some apple cider vinegar in water after eating? It's a lifesaver for me, near-instant cure for lack of stomach acid. Has to be the ACV "with mother", the cloudy stuff in it. Maybe no longer relevant if you're already taking Betain HCL (I thought that was a medication at first lol), but I definitely have to mention it in case you may have a natural medication…

Yeah it’s the same mechanism ! The ACC stimulates the stomach to produce loads of acid and enzymes which it is lacking. The supplements I use are basically the same except the enzymes themselves are provided in the form of the digestive enzyme tablets and the Betail HCL with Pepsin is what stimulates the acid production!

Very glad it’s working for you :)

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#107

Post by kyleyeats » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 8:02 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #4

I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack symptoms. When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the esophagus through the diaphragm. So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs again…

I'm not a doctor or anything but you're describing gallstones and gallbladder attacks here. Regular panic attacks will reveal an emotional pattern. Gallbladder attacks usually happen after you eat a big, high-fat meal and won't have an associated emotional trigger.

It'll feel like a Tai Chi master is doing the Two Finger Death Touch on the right side of your diaphragm, but aside from that feels just like a panic attack.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#108

Post by cachecrab » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 8:29 PM UTC

InSteady wrote: post #62

jinder wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Famotidine an old school H2 antihistamine used for acid reflux (pre PPIs), was found to have an additional mechanism of action via activation of the vagus nerve to inhibit pro-inflammatory cytokines in covid (via alpha 7 nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (α7nAChR) signal transduction - https://molmed.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022... ). It has also been used quite extensively to combat post-covid neurop…

That's interesting about famotidine. This is also a treatment for MCAS, which is probably under-diagnosed because it's kind of obscure and the diagnostic criteria kind of suck currently. It can reduce stomach acid, so my doctor and I decided against using it as the first option in treatment, but may reconsider even though the alternative seems to be working. Thanks for the link and explanation. Can you share any rele…

Look into PHGG for increasing butyrate production

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S175646462...

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#109

Post by thenerdhead » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 8:55 PM UTC

BizarroLand wrote: post #101

QuantumGood wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easier to read version of the study summaries: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ibnJr6MqhHfpkXXzsKOD...

Part of me is interested, part of me is horrified by the idea of DIY electroshock therapy.

What exactly is DIY here? TENS devices are FDA approved and these are well known settings / protocols for different conditions.

Re: Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation

#110

Post by cachecrab » Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

blue_dragon wrote: post #89

albntomat0 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a very similar situation as you with EoE, acid reflux, and a confirmed mild hiatal hernia. The anxiety seems to line up as well. Have you found any additional solutions, past the standard PPI and diet for acid reflux? Thanks!

Hijacking your comment to share my story and ask for advice. I have diagnosed EoE, I've had it for my whole life. I'm currently on 80mg omeprazole daily and an elimination diet. This helps a lot but is not a cure. I've also experienced benign heart palpitations for my whole life (confirmed by a cardiologist). For a long time, I've had a hunch that the two were connected. On days when I have EoE flare-ups, I feel some…

I haven’t been diagnosed with EoE (and don’t think I have it) but I do think there is a connection between heart palpitations and the digestive system. I have SIBO and will sometimes get them from the trapped gas.

Some would consider this as Roemheld syndrome, which isn’t an official diagnosis but I see it as more of an explanation that your digestive system can cause these symptoms, rather than there being a problem with your heart.

I don’t have any thing else to offer you as I’m not as familiar with EoE but you could look through the related subreddit to see if others have suggestions. Wishing you the best!