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Slavery's last stronghold

cnn.com

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Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#101

Post by kls »

tomkin wrote: post #99
kls wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to imply that holding philosophical beliefs about our purpose somehow is an indicator of intelligence or lack of and of ones ability to logically analyze the subject. Spiritual beliefs or the lack of are not an indicator of ones ability to critically think. There are many religious people that have weighed the evidence and feel that it falls on the side of creation and do so based on the best evidence availa…

> You seem to imply that holding philosophical beliefs about our purpose somehow is an indicator of intelligence or lack of and of ones ability to logically analyze the subject. I don't know if I implied it, but yes – if what you believe in is false and can be easily tested and verified to be false and still manage to sink belief in it, and profess others to do the same or "you'll go to hell", otherwise – you're not…

Nope. You're religious. You come to a place where the main occupation is programming; a vice that shows illogic the door unfavourably and expect to hear clamour at the idea of global misinformation dissemination. Not to mention call athiests drug, alcohol addled fiends.

Actually I have identified as agnostic for a long time, and I don't see where I called call atheists drug, alcohol addled fiends, rather I highlighted a personal experience with family members that identify with atheism and who chose it because it aligned with there preferences, as well as noted there particular reasons for doing so to highlight that lack of critical analysis happens on both sides of the fence. You are becoming defensive and inferring items that are not being said. To be very clear I stated that my relatives chose atheism due to it aligning with their desires not that all atheist have those desires, but in saying that some do and some don't which was the overarching point, which is while there are true thinkers in most movements there are also non critical thinkers, atheism is not impervious to that reality.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#102

Post by kls »

tomkin wrote: post #100
kls wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not trying to prove you wrong or back you up, just merely adding depth to the conversation, dogma and human nature seem to be deeply intertwined and religion is but one manifestation of it. I do believe that it is only a manifestation though and the real issue is complex human nature. I think that if all religion where gone tomorrow, that the world would not be a better place. It may not be a worse place but it…

> I think that if all religion where gone tomorrow, that the world would not be a better place. Seriously? You think religions that tell people to behead unbelievers, circumcise (read: mutilation) without permission, kill animals in horrific, ritualist ways helps our world be a better place? > but that has little to do with the content of religion and everything to do with the fact that humans are involved. "The boss…

I think you miss my overarching point, as someone who has read all of the books, I can assure you there is very little in them that states go kill in my name, the old testament being the exception but for the major two religions they where superseded by new covenants via either the Koran or the gospel. Christ talked about universal forgiveness and pacifism and Mohammad had very specific rules of engagement for self defense. If we bring in Buddhism to round it out then we find more pacifism.

I cover that background to reach the following point and that is it's not what is in the book, as many of the leaders pervert what the book says and many followers never read it for themselves, the pages could be blank and it would be the same result. it is the people involved that is the problem and given those peoples desire if they could not control others via religion then they would do it via politics or race or another means of dividing people and that is the core issue getting rid of religion will not have a net impact because the system and volume of those being controlled will just shift to other mechanisms. Dealing with the root cause is what we need to focus on and not the symptoms, religion is but a symptom as such fixing it will provide no cure.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#103

Post by Yoms »

tomkin wrote: post #96
kls wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if we could magically wipe away all trace of religion or God from the minds of every Mauritanian, the problem would continue. One only has to ask which came first the desire to control others or the religion that justified it, I believe the answer is self evident and if it is, then religions that control are merely a symptom of human nature and abolishing them will not cure the foundry cause which is the desire.

> abolishing them will not cure the foundry cause which is the desire. No, but it makes it harder to execute when everyone thinks for themselves. If everyone was educated to think critically rather than handing over part of their brain's processing power to a mob, controlling populations would be harder. Much, much harder.

The part you're missing (and what I think kls is getting at) is that groupthink is not exclusive to religion. A group of people will gravitate towards each other and stop critically thinking. It sucks, but it's human nature.

Atheists are just as capable of groupthink as any other group (conservatives, liberals, environmentalists, capitalists). And just as religion has been used, and still continues to be used, to justify some truly horrible things; the militant desire for the elimination of religion can be just as bad. Sitting around pointing fingers at a very large and varied group of philosophies doesn't really do any good...

In the parent post you mention we burned Toyota at the stake for a faulty floor mat, and then in the same sentence say "we pay no mind to the religious implications of our world's enormous head counts all tied to religion." What do you propose? We burn those religious at the stake? Because your groupthink of atheism makes you feel superior (saved)? Because critical thinking is king, and those that you deem unable to do so are inferior (not saved)?

Scary, and almost religious...

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#104

Post by tomkin »

Yoms wrote: post #103
tomkin wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> abolishing them will not cure the foundry cause which is the desire. No, but it makes it harder to execute when everyone thinks for themselves. If everyone was educated to think critically rather than handing over part of their brain's processing power to a mob, controlling populations would be harder. Much, much harder.

The part you're missing (and what I think kls is getting at) is that groupthink is not exclusive to religion. A group of people will gravitate towards each other and stop critically thinking. It sucks, but it's human nature. Atheists are just as capable of groupthink as any other group (conservatives, liberals, environmentalists, capitalists). And just as religion has been used, and still continues to be used, to jus…

I propose we declare religion a fallacy and declare that it provides no value to a population. You don't need to hurt people to eliminate ignorance.

My problem is with the group think mentality. Religion just happens to be a larger manifestation of group think, but more so a way for people to orchestrate their desires in the guise of being from the word of god making any argument (like this one) absolutely unacceptable if it questions that authority. That's why religion stands out - because it has the power to control people in mass without much resistance. Help me understand why this is good for society. As such, I've only seen people dance around why it is good that religion is velcro-ed to our behavior. Help me see why a large group of people forfeiting their critical thinking in place of a bunch of mythological fallacies as A Good Thing.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#105

Post by tomkin »

kls wrote: post #101
tomkin wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to imply that holding philosophical beliefs about our purpose somehow is an indicator of intelligence or lack of and of ones ability to logically analyze the subject. I don't know if I implied it, but yes – if what you believe in is false and can be easily tested and verified to be false and still manage to sink belief in it, and profess others to do the same or "you'll go to hell", otherwise – you're not…

Nope. You're religious. You come to a place where the main occupation is programming; a vice that shows illogic the door unfavourably and expect to hear clamour at the idea of global misinformation dissemination. Not to mention call athiests drug, alcohol addled fiends. Actually I have identified as agnostic for a long time, and I don't see where I called call atheists drug, alcohol addled fiends, rather I highlighte…

If your argument is against atheism, you'll find no resistance from me. I could care less about the atheist movement or otherwise. That's the whole premise of critical thinking - to never align yourself because of a few common ideals. Atheism is a movement. Critical thinking is a way of life. That's why religion is such a hard pill to swallow. You can't, in good conscience, be a critical thinker AND believe in talking snakes. Once you come to that realization there is really no turning back. Then you see how religion corrupts indefinitely and absolutely.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#106

Post by tomkin »

kls wrote: post #102
tomkin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that if all religion where gone tomorrow, that the world would not be a better place. Seriously? You think religions that tell people to behead unbelievers, circumcise (read: mutilation) without permission, kill animals in horrific, ritualist ways helps our world be a better place? > but that has little to do with the content of religion and everything to do with the fact that humans are involved. "The boss…

I think you miss my overarching point, as someone who has read all of the books, I can assure you there is very little in them that states go kill in my name, the old testament being the exception but for the major two religions they where superseded by new covenants via either the Koran or the gospel. Christ talked about universal forgiveness and pacifism and Mohammad had very specific rules of engagement for self d…

> If we bring in Buddhism to round it out then we find more pacifism.

Buddhism still teaches bullshit, in the form of reincarnation. I know because I was a Buddhist for 3 years. It was the last string before I threw in the towel on religion altogether. Nevertheless, it is the absolute last religion that I could possibly take issue with. The problem is, once you say one school of thought on groupthink is okay you open the door to garbage debate like this where we float around conveniently, downplaying the end results for many. Like these and countless other people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv7VdQNC8Yc

By supporting groupthink, you support the end result. Yes. Exactly that. If you support religion and groupthink for the purpose of good, you must concede your alignment for the negative as well. Conveniently cherry picking what you support isn't proving anything other than you're completely ignorant to the writing on the wall.

Re: Slavery's last stronghold

#107

Post by thomasdavis »

sofifonfek wrote: post #44
InclinedPlane wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not slavery. Slavery is the absolute absence of choice and opportunity. So-called "wage slavery" is the very poster child of "first world problems". Oh golly gosh it sucks so much to be tied to a job you hate, doesn't it? But in the vast majority of cases that lack of perceived freedom is not an actual lack of freedom but due to choices made. Often it's due to failure to budget and save properly, failure to a…

So according to your post, having more money = freedom ? Does it not look like what a slave to money would say to deny slavery ? Or as stated in the article: Various religions in many countries have been used to justify the continuation of slavery. "They make people believe that going to paradise depends on their submission," That's said, what you stated is false,it's a known fact that the abolition of old style slav…

lol loved the last line, keep it up brother!
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