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Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

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Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#101

Post by amelius »

loxias wrote: post #22
amelius wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are most Applers even allowed to speak in forums like this one? Did OP follow the rules?

Based on what I know of the rules (which is out of date by roughly 10 years), no, OP did not follow them.

I don't know about others, but I feel that it must suck working for a company that is so closed that you can't even express yourself normally. And this while the company still reaps the benefits of society, like the results of hundreds of years of scientific advances, and of course open source software.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#102

Post by KaiserPro »

catiopatio wrote: post #97
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

> "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. If you cannot sketch out a simple linked list on a whiteboard, you’re not an engineer and have no business being hired as one at a place like Apple, full stop. I was asked to sketch out a hash table on the whiteboard. It was trivial, because a trivial hash table is trivial.

> you’re not an engineer and have no business being hired as one at a place like Apple

well, unless you have a engineering degree, you're not actually an engineer, but we'll gloss over that. (big hint CS isn't an engineering discipline, otherwise testing, requirements gathering and cost analysis would be a big part of the course. )

I was once asked to implement a distributed fault tolerant hashtable on a whiteboard. I'd still never make one from scratch unless I really really needed to. (and I've worked on distributed datastores....)

but that wasn't part of the coding test, that was part of the design test.

Which is my point, re-implementing things for the hell of it, is an antipattern. rote learning of toy implementations of some everyday function doesn't give you a good signal on if the candidate understands why you should use x over y.

and again, my point is this: If I catch someone re-implementing something in a code review, they need to have a really good fucking reason to do it, otherwise it'll be rejected.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#103

Post by thejazzman »

121789 wrote: post #99
sdfghswe wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you're trying to make a point. Make a point.

I agree. Every hiring process will have false negatives. Pointing out every one doesn’t invalidate the effectiveness of the process

Effective for whom? And at doing what?

SV is full of mediocre engineers; so it fails at guaranteeing you got yourself a star. And I don't think anyone needs more anecdotes to think great candidates lose for arbitrary/subjective/misunderstanding/random reasons

--

I'm 15y into my career with a degree from CMU; I am treated like royalty everywhere I work ... and yet I still absolutely dread, hate and repeatedly have bad experiences interviewing for jobs.

I've considered switching careers numerous times because of the emotional distress I go through just interviewing. And that's before we even talk about the insane amount of time every prospective employer demands of you!

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#104

Post by seanmcdirmid »

devoutsalsa wrote: post #88
Eddygandr wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't the guy who made Homebrew fail his interview at Google because he couldn't invert a binary tree? That's a guy who has built a popular product in the wild and can clearly code but failed because of the leetcode barrier at all IC levels.

If you can’t invert a binary tree, how can I trust you to change my website’s favicon?!

You would be surprised how hard it would be to invert a binary tree, or really just what the question is asking for, if you didn't at least study up on the concept in the last decade. It is conventional enough to sound mundane, but how often are we inverting binary trees in practice?

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#105

Post by smt88 »

3cats-in-a-coat wrote: post #63
smt88 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Cook, Apple products have become bland and overpriced in most categories (the M_ processors are a huge exception), but it's also wildly successful. The stock price is 7x what it was when Cook took over. He's one of the most successful CEOs of all time. Unfortunately the only conclusion we can draw is that consumers don't care about: - software quality - bugs - voice assistants ...and do care about: - hardware q…

I don't agree customers don't care about bugs, software quality and voice assistants, you can hear them complaining in literally every forum for Apple users. An ecosystem has stickiness, so many things go wrong, that people strongly care about, but the overall equation still tips in favor of "I'll stay". The UI design went completely downhill in iOS7 with Forstall leaving and Ive taking over. I love Ive, but he's not…

> you can hear them complaining in literally every forum for Apple users

My layperson friends seem not to know iOS has any bugs at all. They just seem to think software in general is flaky.

And all those complainers still keep buying these things, so they don't care enough to switch.

> Tim Cook needs a "product guy" to help him round out the management team.

Why? Objectively speaking, why does he need a product guy? The company has been performing incredibly well as-is, and that's all he cares about and all he's paid to care about.

Their brand doesn't seem to be suffering either, so they're doing well in the short and long terms.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#106

Post by 3cats-in-a-coat »

nkotov wrote: post #100
3cats-in-a-coat wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree customers don't care about bugs, software quality and voice assistants, you can hear them complaining in literally every forum for Apple users. An ecosystem has stickiness, so many things go wrong, that people strongly care about, but the overall equation still tips in favor of "I'll stay". The UI design went completely downhill in iOS7 with Forstall leaving and Ive taking over. I love Ive, but he's not…

I really respect Ives as a great product designer but not a great UI designer in my opinion. iOS 6 Skeuomorphism was taken to the extreme so that iOS 7 felt like a breathe of fresh air. Now everything just feels bland.

There was a lot of air in iOS 7, and the fonts were so thin they were waving in the open breeze.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#107

Post by catiopatio »

gumby wrote: post #87
KaiserPro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, those statements (just use an existing library) are what you'll do in practice especially as a beginner The more code you write, the more you have to maintain. Sure, of course there are times where you need to re-implement something from scratch. But those times are rare (or should be). Making something from scratch without strong justification is a strong signal, just not a positive one. Now, as you point ou…

> o Do they ask questions? I find I get 90% of the insight from simple questions like "write a function to shuffle a deck of cards. Don't worry about simple typos like forgetting a semicolon." You learn a lot from how they set things up (make a suit class, and a vector of card classes? Or just use the integers 1-52?) and talking about that. Do they think about the problem (and, as you say, ask a couple of "requiremen…

I’m not sure that’s a great interview question; the right answer to google the appropriate algorithm (e.g. Fisher–Yates), make sure you understand implementation errors that will lead to bias, and implement it over any arbitrary sequence.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#108

Post by MichaelZuo »

thejazzman wrote: post #103
121789 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Every hiring process will have false negatives. Pointing out every one doesn’t invalidate the effectiveness of the process

Effective for whom? And at doing what? SV is full of mediocre engineers; so it fails at guaranteeing you got yourself a star. And I don't think anyone needs more anecdotes to think great candidates lose for arbitrary/subjective/misunderstanding/random reasons -- I'm 15y into my career with a degree from CMU; I am treated like royalty everywhere I work ... and yet I still absolutely dread, hate and repeatedly have bad…

Who's forcing you to stay in SV?

If it's making you so stressed out as you claim, then the obvious step, to me, would be a change of scenery.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#109

Post by MichaelZuo »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #54
KaiserPro wrote: post #30

The problem is that "leetcode" is a definitely a thing that exists in "FAANG" interviews. The biggest stumbling block with leetcode is that you shouldn't be programming like that in real life. "make a linked list" no, just use a library like everyone else. "Implement addition in python but with string inputs", "no you can't use the built in x" All of that "clever" shit should be filtered out at PR/MR/diff review time…

The problem is though how do you evaluate for real work without a portfolio of experience? Real work projects take weeks - perhaps months - to design, build, review and release. How do you test for that, really? I agree leetcode style interviews are artificial, but I think they persist because few people have identified and popularised effective alternatives. At least with leetcode you've shown people in front of you…

It seems fairly straightforward to just ask verbal questions?

For example, if the position is mostly coding C then just get them to explain how some X interacts with some Y and how that interacts with some Z. Maybe with a copy of of K&R and get them to point to page so and so.

Do that a few times, maybe use a whiteboard, and I think any experienced C developer will be able to tell who's faking it and who really understands within 2 or 3 iterations.

Even if there are no experienced folks in the company, then it will take longer but, after an hour or two it'd be pretty difficult for anyone to fake a solid understanding of hundreds of pages of K&R.

Re: Getting a job at Apple without going to college or doing LeetCode

#110

Post by angarg12 »

sdfghswe wrote: post #62
yieldcrv wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird take because the whole point of the last decade of leetcode was that people with special skills or that built something great can't even get hired. which was dumb. but reinforced the supposed uniformity of that process. I'm glad people aren’t just continuing the practice simply because they experienced the practice.

> This is a weird take because the whole point of the last decade of leetcode was that people with special skills or that built something great can't even get hired. No, it looks like you're missing the point. Leetcode is not for people with special skills. It's for people with NO SKILLS other than "can code". Well if the only thing you can do is write code, you better be really good at writing code.

I'm a Machine Learning Engineer with 5+ years of experience at FAANG. I have designed and built real time ML systems that support millions of QPS with And yet I can't escape leetcode interviews. In fact I recently sent a spree of CVs and got automated rejection emails for most of them.

I don't buy your take.

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