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This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

thisamericanlife.org

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Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#101
post #81
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An M.O. of many fabricators in the world of journalism is to first claim the source(s) can't be tracked down, and then to claim artistic license (this happened with Mike Barnicle of the Boston Globe in the late 1990s, and I recall seeing similar incidents at the New York Times and one of the Chicago papers over the years as well). Plagiarism is another problem area for publishers, but their excuse is often along the…

I hope you enjoyed your 5-min of fame Mike Daisey because your reputation is now completely and irrevocably ruined.

Oh "one more thing".

There's Henry Blodget as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Blodget

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#102
I am an iOS developer and I listened to the episode with "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory".

It definitely struck a cord in me; two specific things.

#1 Excellence is in the culture. Unabashed, aggressive, and strident. If you didn't read the docs then why are you even talking? That kind of attitude. iOS more than any other language is a club for readers, because devs here respect the legacy of code. But since I am American and because I have my pick of whatever platform or language, I have a choice. No matter what my situation, what excuse I may make, at the end of the day I chose iOS and I adopted Apple's culture. But, if I were in a different situation, where there really isn't another job out there, and culture is not really a choice, and I was forced to perform on such a level (and Apple's culture bleeds into every facet of its organization, software, hardware, sales) it might be a waking nightmare. It is one thing to embrace the grind to stay up night after night, eating garbage, working on your next startup because it is in your blood, and being broke and poor and performing to the beat of a driven man's rhythm.

#2 I'm sure there is a significant reason why China doesn't see the release of iOS products until much later but it still just rubs me the wrong way. Having iOS products released sooner than later in your country is a privilege. Does the country that make these products not deserve that privilege?

I love This American Life, I love iOS and the objective-c language, and am an admirer of Steve Jobs and the company he created. I don't have any heated feeling about anyone in all this so let me say I have nothing but respect for all parties involved. However there is a common thread in all this between Apple, Steve, China and startup culture--the pursuit of excellence at the cost of normal human needs, and the amount of suffering/neglect man is willing to put himself through to achieve his/her goals--that widened my eyes, because it somehow reminded me of what I was doing to myself. You all know what I'm talking about. If you have ever hustled, tried your hand as a founder, embraced the grind you know; the depth of depravity we all put yourselves through to reach an ephemeral goal. It has no taste though sweet in our minds. Always driven with trained eyes unwavering stares, focused, mental, cold as some might describe us. All for what? But to perform at a high level. All else being secondary.

I look forward to the corrections episode and am working harder to embrace my fun side.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, Planet Money rocks my world. Check out the Econtalk podcast with Russ Roberts for where they get some of their inspiration and data. It's a much deeper economics dive, hour long and tends to be Hayekian as opposed to PM which is firmly Keynesian.

I got into Planet Money during the GFC meltdown but more recently I've found the quality of their shows waning. They seem to be dumbing down topics (a recent show on the Greek debt crisis made out that the problem was essentially "office politics" between the ECB and the Greek government with no mention of the structural economic problems of the Euro experiment). For a deep dive on economics and politics from the lef…

NPR isn't supposed to be leftist, it's supposed to be journalism. That's what separates them from other outlets, they're either focused on advocacy (fox, currentTV) or entertainment (CNN, MSNBC).

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#104
My takeaway from the TAL email is that the conditions he describes are true the most part, with the exception of underage workers being common. This doesn't match the media coverage at all -- I suppose we'll all find out when they release the full episode. The impression I get from these parts:

>"In our original broadcast, we fact checked all the things that Daisey said about Apple's operations in China," says Glass, "and those parts of his story were true, except for the underage workers, who are rare."

>Some of the falsehoods found in Daisey's monologue are small ones: the number of factories Daisey visited in China, for instance, and the number of workers he spoke with. Others are large. In his monologue he claims to have met a group of workers who were poisoned on an iPhone assembly line by a chemical called n-hexane. Apple's audits of its suppliers show that an incident like this occurred in a factory in China, but the factory wasn’t located in Shenzhen, where Daisey visited.

>"It happened nearly a thousand miles away, in a city called Suzhou," Marketplace’s Schmitz says in his report. "I’ve interviewed these workers, so I knew the story. And when I heard Daisey’s monologue on the radio, I wondered: How’d they get all the way down to Shenzhen? It seemed crazy, that somehow Daisey could’ve met a few of them during his trip."

But he mushed them all together into a narrative and framed it as if he has personally seen and talked with these people.

Skimming the mainstream coverage I get the impression that both his personal story and the facts about the manufacturing culture were equally wrong. So he did the cause was fighting for vastly more harm than good: people now believe the problem itself doesn't exist. Whoops. Way to go dude.

I'll be interested to hear the correction episode to see how they detangle the falsehoods in the author's personal story vs things that aren't happening (or aren't happening with enough frequency to be concerned about.)

Certainly suggesting that a westerner with a single week in China would encounter all these problems exaggerates their frequency even if the problems are real. It suggests that if he can find all this out so easily, what else must be going on? On the other hand, many of his claims about conditions so seem to be real issues backed by other reporting. It will be a tricky episode.

edit: lol, lowest rated comment out of hundreds. my judgement must be out of whack, i'll take another look at this story tomorrow with a clear head.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#105

An interesting coincidence - NPR is underwritten by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I wonder if Gates helped fund this show in particular?

Foxconn also makes the Xbox360 and other hardware that Microsoft uses. No conspiracy here except for one guy lying and getting caught.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#106
post #44
post #26

From a naive viewpoint: Why is all this reporting about factory conditions focus on Apple, i.e. Foxconn? Is there proof that factories operated by Foxconn are worse than the typical Chinese factory? Or is Apple pushing them to Draconian measures, e.g. guards with guns, child workers, etc.? How's this any different from any other Made in China electronics product? EDIT: The replies are aligned with what I was thinking…

By all accounts, Foxconn factories seem to treat their workers significantly better than other Chinese factory owners. Several reports have shown this. The reason why the media chooses to focus on Foxconn, and Apple in particular, is for the easy clicks. I'm not saying that conditions in Foxconn factories are ideal - they're not - but they're much better than some of the truly awful factories that can be found in var…

And the suicide rate of Foxconn employees is about 10x lower than China's national average:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#107
post #81
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An M.O. of many fabricators in the world of journalism is to first claim the source(s) can't be tracked down, and then to claim artistic license (this happened with Mike Barnicle of the Boston Globe in the late 1990s, and I recall seeing similar incidents at the New York Times and one of the Chicago papers over the years as well). Plagiarism is another problem area for publishers, but their excuse is often along the…

I hope you enjoyed your 5-min of fame Mike Daisey because your reputation is now completely and irrevocably ruined.

Not in America. There's no such thing as bad publicity. Sure he won't get hired by 'This American Life' or anyone that cares for facts but there's always reality tv.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#108
post #2

I'm a Chicago Public Radio member and just got this in my email. Wow: I’m writing to tell you that tonight, This American Life and Marketplace will reveal that a story that we broadcast on This American Life this past January contained significant fabrications. We’re retracting that story because we can’t vouch for its truth, and this weekend's episode of our show will detail the errors in the story, which was an exc…

"We didn't think that he was lying to us. That was a mistake."

It's scary how easy it is to socially engineer people and get what you want.

While some of this comes from experience I feel that some people are just wired in a way that makes them easier to dupe independent of their education and intelligence.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#109
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "truth" in his story? How do you know? The most dangerous thing you can do with a story like this is try to pick apart the things that seem true; your brain is wired to make the wrong things seem authentic.

I know because I've seen it. My wife and I used to live in China, and we did traveling in both the high and the low places. I can't speak to the particulars in Daisey's story (since I don't know which ones were made up), but the overall picture he painted sounded familiar. It's unquestionable that there are horrible working conditions in Chinese factories. That's the tragedy here. There's millions of awful wonderful…

And how would you compare the work in the factories to being a Chinese farm worker, for example? Why are millions choosing factories over farms?

I think it is more important that there is a trend towards improved work environments and opportunities than bemoaning the fact that any particular work environment isn't as good as some cushy 1st-world white-collar job.

Re: This American Life Retracting "Mr. Daisey & The Apple Factory"

#110
post #104

My takeaway from the TAL email is that the conditions he describes are true the most part, with the exception of underage workers being common. This doesn't match the media coverage at all -- I suppose we'll all find out when they release the full episode. The impression I get from these parts: >"In our original broadcast, we fact checked all the things that Daisey said about Apple's operations in China," says Glass,…

What makes you think the conditions he describes are true?
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