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I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

theatlantic.com

101–110 of 128 posts

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#101
post #30

Reading through this list of anecdotes I had mixed emotions. I spent a significant amount of time unemployed 10+ years ago in the post-dotcom recession in the UK and it was awful. This was partly due to the highly unregulated nature of UK IT recruitment but the problem was the lack of jobs. Still, a see some problems in this article. Like "I graduated with a philosophy major in 2008". Bzzzzt. Sorry, you made choices.…

"I was careful to say you "need a plan" for the real world when it comes to college."

The problem is that we've been told all of our lives to "follow our dreams," because "being happy with what you're doing is more important than financial gain."

It's a nice sentiment, but when you're 18, you've never lived in the real world and you simply cannot appreciate the trade-off you're making. This is to say nothing of student loans.

This is to say nothing of people who picked an industry that just blew up. Nobody entering college in in the early aughts knew the economy would wither in 8 years.

"You can get from pretty much anywhere in the US to anywhere else for under $500. What's that? You want your stuff? Ok, that's the real problem."

Before you can sign a lease, very often you need two months' rent and a security deposit. This amount will vary wildly, but in the above case, call it $1K altogether. Maybe you can find a roommate but uh now you have nproblems++.

You also need to find the right financial trade-off between living somewhere where a car is necessary vs. not. Maybe NYC is the exception to the rule, but cheaper places also trend towards less safe and less convenient.

You still need to pay for food, utilities, and continue to pay rent while looking for a job. Tack on a car payment and gas mileage if the only place you can afford is far or public transportation sucks. If you went to college, tack on a student loan payment or two.

The fact is that you must save up a non-trivial amount of money to go... somewhere... for some as yet undefined quality of living and no guarantee whatsoever that you'll find a job. Oh, and you won't have any friends or family, either. Maybe you guys are all people who make friends easily, but I am emphatically not. I'm highly sympathetic to people's unwillingness to leave behind their support networks.

Remember, what provoked this was an article shaming these kids for not moving. In response, they're voicing perfectly reasonable objections. They made the rational economic decision not to move because it's a lot of work and money for uncertain gain.

If we want to shame them for making sensible financial decisions instead of living up to baby boomer standards (or whoever's), I don't think the problem is on their end.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are unemployed and just out of college you're living at home, not in an apartment.

You might be holding down a part time job while in college, and using that money to pay for your apartment. In that case, of course, you may be able to wait for your lease to be over - hopefully you timed it to close to your graduation date.

Ah, sure. But in that case it's not a huge deal, you just wait, or you work out a deal with your landlord. Most of the time if you talk to them they'll be ok with working with you to sublet your apartment for the balance of your lease.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy into this logic. I'm sure it has an effect, but I don't see how a Baby Boomer working a job is worse for the economy than a Baby Boomer suckling on the government teat on retirement. It's not a zero sum game, if someone is doing productive work I think that's a net win for the economy.

Err, if you're referring to social security that's money that they've been paying into as part of their paycheck. But generally that's not the primary source of income AIUI. Most people were counting on their 401Ks which obviously took a hit by varying degrees. So there's a strong financial incentive for them to delay retirement as long as possible. Medicare may be considered suckling on the govt teat but uh getting…

If you think that the Social Security system works like some sort of bank, I've got a few surprises for you.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be holding down a part time job while in college, and using that money to pay for your apartment. In that case, of course, you may be able to wait for your lease to be over - hopefully you timed it to close to your graduation date.

Ah, sure. But in that case it's not a huge deal, you just wait, or you work out a deal with your landlord. Most of the time if you talk to them they'll be ok with working with you to sublet your apartment for the balance of your lease.

This depends hugely on where you live. Good luck trying this approach with an apartment complex in Dallas, TX, for instance. (We did. We failed. We paid.)

(Some more context - I was long past college when this happened, and got a job offer in New York where I live now.)

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#105
In order to make a major move, you have to feel that the opportunities in the new place are worth the cost of uprooting yourself and leaving your friends and family behind. You also have to be willing to put yourself into a sink or swim situation - when you're in a new place where you don't know anyone, your ability to fallback and rely on someone is pretty much nonexistent.

Personally, I've made 4 major moves: first from my hometown in Washington State to Chicago, then to Raleigh, on to London, and now I'm in Oslo. Each time I decided to move, it was because I felt that the new location would yield better opportunities in the long run. --Even Raleigh, despite being too southern for my tastes.

Major moves aren't easy, but for me they've always been worth it in the long run (I never want to live in Raleigh again, but if I hadn't decided to try it out, I probably wouldn't have made it to Europe). I'd recommend that people take the chance.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must have rewritten my CV countless times during my job hunt at that point as well as having many people proof read it with me, I'm sure it was never perfect but I can be fairly confident that it was better put together than the majority of CVs floating around from unemployed people at the time. Regarding presentation, I was always washed, wore the best suit I could afford and paid attention to body language what I…

Your posts on this thread read like you are living in an Ayn Rand Dystopia. Nearly everyone around you works for the government? You are too dependent on government benefits to start a business? Your hope is that at some point the cost of living will be cheap enough that most people can live comfortably on welfare? There is such a dis-incentive to creating companies and jobs that even a motivated, well-spoken develop…

I can only speak of my own experience based on where I live which is a post industrial town in England.

Basically as manufacturing declined the government stepped in and opened up many of their bureaucratic departments here. I think something like 60%+ of the jobs around here are for government of some form (either local or national).

We also have one of the highest unemployment rates in Europe. Combined with the fact that there is not really much of a tech scene here (most people have few qualifications at all) it is quite difficult to land development work.

My point is more that relocating or starting a business would require more resources than a typical recent college is likely to have access to.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from South America, I'm amazed that in the U.S. you're out of health coverage if you're not employed. You're not. The tax structure encourages this kind of behavior, but the day I quit my job 5 years ago I started cutting a check for my own health insurance. If people actually looked into the cost of catastrophic coverage with a high deductible (the point of "insurance" in the first place), they'd see that…

Cutting a check is pretty difficult when you stop receiving a salary. The logic of the US system is incredible: Pay a few hundred dollars a month while employed for coverage from your employer, or if they lay you off, you have the opportunity of picking up COBRA coverage by paying both the employee and employer portion for over a thousand dollars a month. In what other first world country do the newly unemployed pay…

I was talking about private insurance, not COBRA (which is crazy expensive). This was the single largest factor keeping me from quitting the corporate world for my own business, but only due to my own ignorance. Once I looked for a high deductible catastrophic plan for my family, I discovered how easy and affordable it was. HR departments do a good job of brainwashing us into thinking that they are the gatekeepers to the doctor's office, when that's not even close to the truth.

Anecdote time.

Last month I called up a dentist's office who I had never visited before. The conversation went as such.

Me: Hi, I'm a new patient. I'd like to make an appointment.

She: What insurance company are you with? If it's backed by, or affiliated with, the state we aren't accepting any new patients at this time.

Me: I'll be paying cash.

She: How does tomorrow at noon sound?

They happily gave me breakdowns of all costs, made decisions based on price (oh, we could give you this other xray but you don't really need it), and pretty much bent over backwards to make me happy. This isn't abnormal. The same thing happens at the doctor. I pay through an HSA for tax purposes, keep the insurance for major issues, save money in the process, and generally get better service.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. The trait of rich people that I try to emulate (not always successfully) is that they tend to purchase assets that appreciate in value. Toys are paid for with highly disposable money and not the nest egg. The trait of poor people that I try to avoid is purchasing depreciating assets, usually on credit ensuring that you'll be poor until that lotto ticket hits big (i.e. forever).

Isn't this pretty hard? Most assets depreciate. Here's a non-exhaustive list: furniture, kitchen supplies, food, electronics, and vehicles. It seems like it'd be hard if you're poor to avoid having a large chunk of your income go towards things that depreciate immediately you touch them.

It isn't easy, but it pays off. I slept on my floor for 2 years after I got a job as an engineer at IBM.

The overall point is this. If you say that you're poor, but you have a cable connection, TV, cell phone, data plan, multiple cars on finance, large student loans for that lib arts degree, and eat out at restaurants, then you're poor by choice. It's fixable via a change in priorities. I'm not claiming that everyone is in this situation, but many people fall squarely into this bucket.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#109
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to point blame in one specific direction. Yes, you are right they should take responsibility. But these are people who grew up doing the "responsible" thing and listening to the advice of teachers and parents. They made good grades whether or not they learned, did extracurricular activities whether or not they enjoyed them, and otherwise put aside any sort of personal decision-making for 21 years, in the id…

I hate to tell you this, but doing all the right things up through college doesn't entitle you to a guaranteed job upon graduation. You still have to pull yourself up from your bootstraps, pound the pavement (figuratively), and get your first job or internship, start at the bottom of the corporate ladder, live in a 1 bedroom apartment on ramen noodles or beans and rice, and work your way up based on the merits of you…

I don't at all disagree.

But it isn't these people's fault for thinking so, they spent twenty years of their lives working "hard" (for the wrong definition of hard) and being told this lie.

Re: I'd Love to Move, but I Can't

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err, if you're referring to social security that's money that they've been paying into as part of their paycheck. But generally that's not the primary source of income AIUI. Most people were counting on their 401Ks which obviously took a hit by varying degrees. So there's a strong financial incentive for them to delay retirement as long as possible. Medicare may be considered suckling on the govt teat but uh getting…

If you think that the Social Security system works like some sort of bank, I've got a few surprises for you.

An excellent point, if somewhat weakened by the behavior of the banks as of late.
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