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Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

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Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#101

Post by squokko »

resolutebat wrote: post #85
hintymad wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up reading all kinds of articles and books about how engineering itself is a career track and I believed it. However, when I looked at the great engineers, it seems they eventually turned into executives. Jeff Dean, for instance, is one the greatest engineers. He has deep technical skills. He is versatile, as we can see that he made key contributions in storages, distributed systems, and machine learning. Yet…

LinkedIn says Jeff is currently Chief Scientist, an IC role. And Google famously added an extra rung to its IC ladder just to make room for him.

Whatever his title, he runs Google Brain.

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#102

Post by resolutebat »

wiz21c wrote: post #87

Management is about having authority. That is, you're a vector: you must defend the company's values (which you may disagree with) in front of your team (which may disagree with them too). So you'd better be very aligned on those values to be happy in the job. (for example, when I was a manager, my manager's goal was to "show the rest of the company we can make websites much faster", which meant putting pressure on e…

Good management goes both ways: you need to defend your team, convince the higher-ups of its worth and ultimately help define those values.

Of course, it's always possible to end up with a boss who refuses to listen or just doesn't understand, and then you're in trouble.

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#103

Post by squokko »

hintymad wrote: post #80
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #31

I am sick and tired of pressure to get into management once you get older and lack of other opportunities to be rewarded. If I can do job of 5 other people, I can be compensated like two others and the company is still ahead. Or if that's just my arrogance talking, there can be an objective system to measure work accomplished and set rewards accordingly. Instead all of my questions about advancement are met with dema…

I grew up reading all kinds of articles and books about how engineering itself is a career track and I believed it. However, when I looked at the great engineers, it seems they eventually turned into executives. Jeff Dean, for instance, is one the greatest engineers. He has deep technical skills. He is versatile, as we can see that he made key contributions in storages, distributed systems, and machine learning. Yet…

Ultimately even Jeff Dean is not so great that 1000 Google engineers doing what he tells them to isn't even more impactful

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#104

Post by squokko »

psd1 wrote: post #90
re-thc wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The chance of 5 people deciding to leave all at once is exponentially lower than a chance of 1 person. And the chance of 5 random people producing something compared to the 1 you know is a huge contributor is exponentially lower too. > Business likes predictability. That's great. Then they should actually stick with it i.e. reward the 1 that's been contributing rather than gamble on something that might not work. I…

Counterexample: sports teams that improve when they replace their star player. Football doesn't have great players in an absolute sense. For the last decade, the greatest player, depending on which tiresome fan you ask, had been either Ronaldo or Messi. Messi didn't pull up any trees at PSG, and Ronaldo's second stint at MU was underwhelming. In both cases, that's because the team tactics had to be shifted to accommo…

Is it team tactics that had to shift or is it just that the team had to let go of good players to afford the salaries of Ronaldo or Messi?

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#105

Post by svilen_dobrev »

well, i think i did my 2 years term (eh) trying to be CTO/head-of-eng in not-that-organised setup.. and heh, was never given the manager powers/tools. But got things like deciding over my head and workarounding me.

before i started, i read the Managers Path of Camille Fournier... REALLY good book - and the only thing that did not match with me was "you cannot be friends with them (below) anymore". Which, sadly, is mostly true. But i did not expect the other parts. Politics that is not called politics.

So, yeah, looking for Mentoring/ Principal/ Staff/ Whatever-you-call-that - in my 35years making software i have-been even life coach (of few chosens) but seems not a Manager (of whoever run-of-the-mill is there)

ah. have fun.

www.svilendobrev.com

edit: and the lesson is: you can only be a proper manager if you have proper "manager" above..

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#106

Post by re-thc »

psd1 wrote: post #90
re-thc wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The chance of 5 people deciding to leave all at once is exponentially lower than a chance of 1 person. And the chance of 5 random people producing something compared to the 1 you know is a huge contributor is exponentially lower too. > Business likes predictability. That's great. Then they should actually stick with it i.e. reward the 1 that's been contributing rather than gamble on something that might not work. I…

Counterexample: sports teams that improve when they replace their star player. Football doesn't have great players in an absolute sense. For the last decade, the greatest player, depending on which tiresome fan you ask, had been either Ronaldo or Messi. Messi didn't pull up any trees at PSG, and Ronaldo's second stint at MU was underwhelming. In both cases, that's because the team tactics had to be shifted to accommo…

> Messi didn't pull up any trees at PSG, and Ronaldo's second stint at MU was underwhelming. In both cases, that's because the team tactics had to be shifted to accommodate these players, to the detriment of the other players.

Messi nor Ronaldo were the star player of these teams that you mention.

The fans at PSG booed Messi. Kylian Mbappe was the main star and maybe Neymar. Messi always wanted to stay at Barcelona but it didn't work out. He more played his part and wasn't trying to be the star.

Ronaldo was well past his peak even in his Juventus days. He definitely wouldn't be a star player in any top team. No, it's not the team's fault.

> My old team lead was rated highly. But he stifled the rest of the ICs. From above he looked good, from below he looked shit. He should not have been developing software, he needed to be in a process-oriented role. I believe that our productivity would have increased - certainly morale and cohesion would have - if he'd fucked off and not been replaced.

I don't see this as a counter example. You assume there's some god neutrally working towards the greater good of the organization. Often there isn't. If the above, i.e. those paying the salaries like it - that's all that matters. It's a different problem if management gets their priorities, metrics or whatever wrong. This team lead is the way they are because of such incentives. They are rewarded for it.

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#107

Post by aleph_minus_one »

KirillPanov wrote: post #84
rgifford wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sociopaths, the clueless and losers. This great essay analyzing The Office argues that in a modern business context you're one of the three. [1] Those "functional elites" you mentioned? Usually they're working 20-50% more for 0-25% percent more pay. They're called the clueless because they've been conned into working more for less, usually under some clever guise like company being family or company values or the pro…

> Sociopaths break out of the cycle by operating only with concern for power There are other ways to break out of the cycle. Keep looking.

> There are other ways to break out of the cycle. Keep looking.

What are these ways (besides founding a startup or something similar)?

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#108

Post by re-thc »

rjtavares wrote: post #92
re-thc wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a vicious cycle. Someone needs to break the chain.

I've actually been in HR discussions telling people managers are overrated and we need to value ICs more. It's really difficult to explain to HR people that managing people isn't[1] a higher responsability job than being an expert at doing something... [1] Of course, sometimes it is. It depends on the team size and seniority, but also depends on the expertise. I'm just saying that a manager does not have to always ha…

> and we need to value ICs more

Maybe start by getting rid of the silly term - "IC". What's the difference between a product, project, sales and a people manager? They all manage something.

It's people's egos and lust for power that makes this distinction.

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#109

Post by unicornmama »

resolutebat wrote: post #85
hintymad wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up reading all kinds of articles and books about how engineering itself is a career track and I believed it. However, when I looked at the great engineers, it seems they eventually turned into executives. Jeff Dean, for instance, is one the greatest engineers. He has deep technical skills. He is versatile, as we can see that he made key contributions in storages, distributed systems, and machine learning. Yet…

LinkedIn says Jeff is currently Chief Scientist, an IC role. And Google famously added an extra rung to its IC ladder just to make room for him.

Jeff has reports that means he's a manager.

Re: Reasons Not to Be a Manager (2019)

#110

Post by makeitdouble »

mhss wrote: post #65
xracy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this sounds to me a bit like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you want people to care about things, you have to listen to what they care about... I can influence some of what people care about as a manager, but it's long-term steering a spaceship a few degrees at a time. I think too many people see managing a team as "managing the people to do good work." When, in fact, managing is much more about managing th…

> If you want people to care about things, you have to listen to what they care about Ultimately we are all paid to solve the problems the business needs solved, even if the solution is boring and not 'exciting' or 'cutting edge' tech (which is often). The best people finds excitement and challenge in almost any work and are self-motivated. Sure, as a manager you should try your very best to shield the team from crap…

> Ultimately we are all paid to solve the problems the business needs solved

There's usually leeway in this: the business has many needs and they get prioritized depending mostly on perception (project impact projections are usually fuzzy with no concrete evidence to back them up)

A manager can be good at pitching interesting/rewarding problems to solve, and get the higher ups' buyin to prioritize them over more boring asinine work.

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