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New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

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Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#101
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the argument isn't that people stayed in Africa, but that everyone outside of Africa died. At this point the 3 oldest fossils we have that look like homo sapiens are all from Morocco or the Levant or Greece, suggesting homo sapiens first evolved near the Mediterranean. But at some time between 50k and 20k years ago, all humans outside of Africa seemed to have died: Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Sapiens,…

> At this point the 3 oldest fossils we have that look like homo sapiens are all from Morocco or the Levant or Greece, suggesting homo sapiens first evolved near the Mediterranean. This is fascinating and new to me, can you provide any articles or podcasts that discuss it?

I've been meaning to write this up in one place, and maybe this week would be a good time to do so.

I thought the news from Morocco was now well known, see here:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2017.22114

Homo sapiens and some other form of human were living in the Levant 200,000 years ago:

https://www.earth.com/news/new-type-of-prehistoric-human-fou...

The reference to the skulls found on an island Greece, I'll need time to track that one down.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the argument isn't that people stayed in Africa, but that everyone outside of Africa died. At this point the 3 oldest fossils we have that look like homo sapiens are all from Morocco or the Levant or Greece, suggesting homo sapiens first evolved near the Mediterranean. But at some time between 50k and 20k years ago, all humans outside of Africa seemed to have died: Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Sapiens,…

Are you saying it is less that homo sapiens out-competed the others than the ice age knocked out everyone? How does that comport with modern humans still having some admixture from them?

My own guess would be the final years of the Ice Age saw too many changes in the northern hemisphere, erratic weather that wiped out everyone, but I have not seen that in an official source, except in discussions of Neanderthals.

Modern Humans can be an admixture of several species if the ancestors to modern humans either migrated south to Africa or continued to survive in some place like Arabia, but perhaps we just haven't found the right fossil yet. Assuming Sapiens and Neanderthals mixed together in the Levant then they either survived in the Levant or they moved south into Africa and then later expanded out of Africa.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the argument isn't that people stayed in Africa, but that everyone outside of Africa died. At this point the 3 oldest fossils we have that look like homo sapiens are all from Morocco or the Levant or Greece, suggesting homo sapiens first evolved near the Mediterranean. But at some time between 50k and 20k years ago, all humans outside of Africa seemed to have died: Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Sapiens,…

Aboriginal Australians migrated to Australia 65,000 years ago.

Yeah, OP's timeline is incredibly off. It has absolutely no bearing to reality.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point the argument isn't that people stayed in Africa, but that everyone outside of Africa died. At this point the 3 oldest fossils we have that look like homo sapiens are all from Morocco or the Levant or Greece, suggesting homo sapiens first evolved near the Mediterranean. But at some time between 50k and 20k years ago, all humans outside of Africa seemed to have died: Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Sapiens,…

> It is well known that Sapiens arrived in Spain 40k years ago and that they demonstrated modern behavior: arts, music, advanced hunting tools Anyone to whom this is complete news? How did they manage this all without wheels?

See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_European_modern_humans

This population in Belgium and Spain seems to have died out:

"Earlier EEMH (10 tested in total), on the other hand, did not seem to be ancestral to any present-day population, nor did they form any cohesive group in and of themselves, each representing either completely distinct genetic lineages, admixture between major lineages, or have highly divergent ancestry. Because of these, the study also concluded that, beginning roughly 37,000 years ago, EEMH descended from a single founder population and were reproductively isolated from the rest of the world. The study reported that an Aurignacian individual from Grottes de Goyet, Belgium, has more genetic affinities to the Magdalenian inhabitants of Cueva de El Mirón, Spain, than to more or less contemporaneous Eastern European Gravettians.[15]"

The population in Spain apparently had music, as this flute is dated to 40k years ago:

https://www.quora.com/Did-Cro-Magnons-have-music

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could these words not have been derived somewhat later independently That would require that the independent languages maintained the exact same derivational process of reduplication + zero-grade ablaut in the root. We know from the attested history of IE language that derivational processes last only for a while before they die out. That independent languages maintained that particular derivational process (which…

But could not a horizontal process between already separated languages/dialects smoothed that out by adapting the incorporated term to its host language, so that the date of the general phonetic bifurcations of two languages and the history of a lot of their vocabulary might be very distinct? I am thinking of such cases as certain Anglicisms that were phonetically adapted when they were incorporated into German. For…

As I said, the derivational process we find here is a very specific one involving reduplication and zero-grade ablaut of the root. If we look at the documented history of the Indo-European languages, both reduplication and ablaut had already become subject to erosion, or even total loss. It is just not realistic for those two things to have survived (and, in this particular derivational process, to survive in sync!) for thousands and thousands of years.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#106
For the layperson I highly recommend The History of English Podcast. Although the focus is on English is starts from square one with the Proto Indo European people -- what we know about their culture/technology, the various migrations and branches, how the language was reconstructed, etc. The host is always careful to point out how these conclusions were drawn and where there are competing hypotheses or uncertainty. I love how the show weaves the evolution of language together with many aspects of history.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we say something about how often a particular technological adaptation is accompanied by an adoption of the corresponding verbal expression? In other words: If the wheel has been adopted by a neighbouring community, is it not very likely that the word for it will be adopted in a linguistically similar version? As an aside: I looked for the origine of the English "wheel" and the German "Rad", and they seem to have…

Roots undergo semantic shifts in their meaning. So English "deer" is cognate to German "Tier" despite the fact that Tier means animal in German, but only one specific kind of animal in English. The German meaning is the original one for the root; in English it shifted to the more specific meaning. In German, "Rad" was originally a word that meant something like "rolling" and it generalized in meaning to encompass wha…

Wow, I am an absolute layperson, only having listened to the History of English podcast before from where I get some minor context, but I find the whole of linguistics so interesting. Thank you for sharing these details!

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#108
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice, sheep in Lithuanian is “avis” ( https://lt.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/avis ) what I assume sounds like “hawis”

Yeah, Lithuanian is one of the most conservative Indo-European languages.

I did not know the term, but very intuitive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_and_innovative_(l... linked near the top of https://en.wikipedia.org//wiki/Lithuanian_language

I'd be curious to see some kind of (perhaps multi-dimensional?) characterization/ranking of all languages' conservatism and innovation, if anyone happens to have a pointer.

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#109

As an Armenian speaker i was pretty surprised at this part > Recent ancient DNA data suggest that the Anatolian branch of Indo-European did not emerge from the Steppe, but from further south, in or near the northern arc of the Fertile Crescent — as the earliest source of the Indo-European family. Our language family tree topology, and our lineage split dates, point to other early branches that may also have spread di…

Why did that surprise you, as an Armenian speaker?

idk in school they really go ham on how exactly our language has elements from the "core" of the indo-european branch, not sure how well the steppe works with the narrative

Re: New insights into the origin of the Indo-European languages

#110
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, thatʼs it: one of the biggest validations of the methodology for reconstructing languages. – Little nitpicks, if you allow: - Saussure reconstructed only two of the three consonants now called “laryngeals” and called them “coefficients sonantiques”. Saussureʼs two sounds would be h₂ and h₃ in modern notation. The Danish linguist Möller added the third (h₁) and suggested that they were laryngeals. - In Hitt…

Thanks, I was pretty sure the details weren't 100% right. Another overlooked point is that it wasn't immediately obvious that the Hittite ḫ was related to Saussure/Möller's laryngeals, because the theory wasn't fully accepted at the time, and not everyone understood it. Even after the ḫ was identified in Hittite, it took a while for people to make the connection. Do you know what Saussure's initial evidence for h2 an…

Yes, you are right, and the whole story of the laryngeal theory is quite exciting. – Saussureʼs initial evidence was a set of Sanskrit forms; and his argumentation went like:

- There is e.g. a root meaning ‘carry’ having the full grade “bʰar” and a corresponding zero grade “bʰr̩” (within the regular ablaut system of Sanskrit).

- Then there is e.g. a root meaning ‘clean’ having the full grade “pavi” and a corresponding zero grade “pū”.

- So we have “bʰar” : “pavi” = “bʰr̩” : “pū” or, re-grouped, “bʰar” : “bʰr̩” = “pavi” : “pū”.

- We already know (since the times of the great Indian grammarians) that, in ablaut, “v” corresponds to “u” (samprasāraṇa). All synchronic observations, by the way, about these different kinds of roots were already made by the Indian grammarians in the first millennium BC, too; and they called the roots à la “bʰar” “aniṭ” ‘without i’ and the roots à la “pavi” “sēṭ” ‘with i’.

- “bʰar” : “bʰr̩” is the regular ablaut pattern understandable as: ‘the full grade has the short vowel (“a” in Sanskrit, “e” in PIE), the zero grade lacks it.’

- Saussures brilliant and simple idea was to trace back “pavi” : “pū” to this very same basic pattern.

- To make this work he assumed a sound in the ‘clean’-root that became “i” between consonants but vanished with compensatory lengthening after sonantic “u”. (Saussure denoted this sound here with the cover symbol “A” in small caps.) So the older, regular pattern can be reconstructed as (in more modern notation):

- “bʰar” : “bʰr̩” = “pavH̩” : “puH”, which yields:

- “bʰar” : “bʰr̩” = “pavi” : “pū” as attested.

This argumentation is fairly compelling IMHO because it complies with Occamʼs razor by assuming that a second complicated, seemingly irregular morphological pattern leads back to the simpler, regular pattern we have to assume anyways, and that this simpler pattern was complicated by sound change – which is the normal way of linguistic change.

But it got even better.

- Saussure then drew attention to the Sanskrit verb formations of the seventh and ninth class (again, already classified and extensively described by the Indian grammarians), which both had an infix, i.e. a morphological element inserted into the root (not prepended like a prefix or appended like a suffix):

- 7th, e.g. “yunakti” ‘yokes (up)’ (the English word is a cognate), built like “yu·na·k-ti” with zero grade “yug” (and “g” → “k” before voiceless “t”), “na”-infix and personal ending “ti”.

- 9th, e.g. “punāti” ‘cleans’ – our pavi/pū-root again. But now with a short “u”? And with an infix “nā” instead of “na” as in “yunakti”? So … “u” instead of “ū” and “nā” instead of “na” … and both is already explained by the coefficient, because then we have to reconstruct:

- “pu·na·H-ti”, because the na-infix had to be inserted before the last consonant of the root. And this formation “pu·na·H-ti” is, again, exactly the same pattern as:

- “yu·na·k-ti”, just with “H” : “k”.

So far this argument justifies to assume one “coefficient”, in the case of the “pavi”-root denoted as “A” (in small caps) by Saussure and “h₂” nowadays. Saussure assumed two – denoting the other as “O̬”, nowadays “h₃” – because he also already noticed the coloring effect you explained in your comment below: The compensatorily lengthened Sanskrit “ā” sometimes corresponds to e.g. Greek and Latin “ā”, sometimes to Greek and Latin “ō”; for the latter Saussure introduced the “O̬”. His argumentation here is more difficult and partly outdated, because he wrote his mémoire (published 1879) in a time when another major discovery was not yet fully taken into account: So far, Indo-Europeanists had assumed that Sanskrit “a” originated from Proto-Indo-European “a”. When Saussure wrote his mémoire, it had become clear that it was necessary to assume at least two diffent vowels here, which both became Indian “a”.

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