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US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

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Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#101

Post by soeijts »

warner25 wrote: post #44

It's interesting to see civilians looking to the military for leadership and management ideas. I'm a career Army officer, and when I was a young officer I looked to civilian books and other resources for management advice. Over the years, however, I've come appreciate more what the Army has written on the topic. Here's the current (2019) version of the Army's doctrine on leadership, if anyone wants to see how it has…

I've heard many times from many places "the military produces so many extraordinary leaders, I wonder how they do it". I don't know what your experience has been, but my experience in the Navy was that they "create" leaders the same way a blast furnace "creates" purified iron; by taking in vast quantities of low-quality ore and burning and discarding 95% of it. All of the programs I completed had attrition rates of 70-90%. I always got the impression military training programs knew how to select people who already had the skills required, and typically had no idea how to teach someone who didn't already know everything. But that's just my experience from the programs I completed. I certainly hope other people had different experiences.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#102

Post by psunavy03 »

lazide wrote: post #96
psunavy03 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not only wrong, it's offensively wrong. I get that there are poor examples of leadership to be seen in the military. But guess what? There's crap leadership in the civilian sector, too, and just because they can't NJP you does not make some workplaces any less toxic. But to compare standard military culture to slavery or abuse is frankly appalling, especially the former.

You’re welcome to be as appalled as you want. I’ve seen enough to be appalled myself. At least it’s now a volunteer military, and we don’t send conscripts into the jungle like we used to. Still paid mostly in patriotism for broken bodies and minds though. The smart deal is warrant officer or contractor if you can swing it. SOC if you’re one of the high speed, low drag types. At least you get more cool stories that wa…

> Still paid mostly in patriotism for broken bodies and minds though.

I find myself repeating myself in this thread . . . I'm sorry if that's your experience. But your own experience is not universalizable across DoD.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#103

Post by lazide »

psunavy03 wrote: post #102
lazide wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re welcome to be as appalled as you want. I’ve seen enough to be appalled myself. At least it’s now a volunteer military, and we don’t send conscripts into the jungle like we used to. Still paid mostly in patriotism for broken bodies and minds though. The smart deal is warrant officer or contractor if you can swing it. SOC if you’re one of the high speed, low drag types. At least you get more cool stories that wa…

> Still paid mostly in patriotism for broken bodies and minds though. I find myself repeating myself in this thread . . . I'm sorry if that's your experience. But your own experience is not universalizable across DoD.

Of course not. I hear the chair force and navy are pretty cush!

Better get it in writing and read the fine print though, not that anyone ever does the first time.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#104

Post by jwhitlark »

this_steve_j wrote: post #93
mter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to treat your NCO/officers like humans, but there's no need to care about your joes. Tell joe to get things done and they can't stop until it's done or they get extra duty. If they refuse/complain? Article 15. And no one is going to risk requesting court martial instead of just getting the article 15 so commands have pretty wide latitude to do whatever they want. > To be effective you can't just rely on shed…

Can someone please explain Article 15 in terms of an analogous civilian workplace infraction and a typical military non-judicial punishment? For example, if Joe shows up with a hangover 2 hours late for work at as a machine operator and cops an attitude with his manager, then he might get a…

It doesn't really fit into that setup. When given an article 15, you can demand a trial by court-martial, so it doesn't really have a parallel in the civilian job market. It's usually kinda like house-arrest. So maybe think of it as some combination of a demotion, a fine, and a couple weeks in jail.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#105

Post by erie »

calmlynarczyk wrote: post #75
warner25 wrote: post #44

It's interesting to see civilians looking to the military for leadership and management ideas. I'm a career Army officer, and when I was a young officer I looked to civilian books and other resources for management advice. Over the years, however, I've come appreciate more what the Army has written on the topic. Here's the current (2019) version of the Army's doctrine on leadership, if anyone wants to see how it has…

I think that's just being wise by broadening your horizons. You've already gotten the Army's take on this matter from your training. After a decade of both civilian and Army experience, the one thing I can say the US military teaches better than any other organization is how to lead people. It has its share of leaders that fail upwards just like anywhere else, but on average the people in upper levels got there prima…

That army metaphor is used by the late PATRICK WINSTON -0:19: The Uniform Code of Military Justice specifies court martial for any officer who sends a soldier into battle without a weapon. There ought to be a similar protection for students because students shouldn't go out into life without the ability to communicate, .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Unzc731iCUY&t=520s

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#106

Post by warner25 »

soeijts wrote: post #101
warner25 wrote: post #44

It's interesting to see civilians looking to the military for leadership and management ideas. I'm a career Army officer, and when I was a young officer I looked to civilian books and other resources for management advice. Over the years, however, I've come appreciate more what the Army has written on the topic. Here's the current (2019) version of the Army's doctrine on leadership, if anyone wants to see how it has…

I've heard many times from many places "the military produces so many extraordinary leaders, I wonder how they do it". I don't know what your experience has been, but my experience in the Navy was that they "create" leaders the same way a blast furnace "creates" purified iron; by taking in vast quantities of low-quality ore and burning and discarding 95% of it. All of the programs I completed had attrition rates of 7…

You're not wrong. On the officer side, service academy seats and ROTC scholarships are competitive to get (like getting into any top-tier college), and then there's a decent amount of attrition along the path to commissioning, followed by more rounds of competitive selection and attrition for certain military communities (aviation, special operations, etc.), followed by the brutal up-or-out promotion and assignment system. So the people who are left standing after a while are usually fairly impressive.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#107

Post by _uoud »

warner25 wrote: post #44

It's interesting to see civilians looking to the military for leadership and management ideas. I'm a career Army officer, and when I was a young officer I looked to civilian books and other resources for management advice. Over the years, however, I've come appreciate more what the Army has written on the topic. Here's the current (2019) version of the Army's doctrine on leadership, if anyone wants to see how it has…

I‘ve done a book summary on The Art of Action by Stephen Bungay where he applies military principles to civilian life and it‘s one of the best ones in this field I‘ve read: https://www.lostbookofsales.com/notes/book-summary-art-of-ac...

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#108

Post by LanceH »

mter wrote: post #3

Nothing the military puts out on leadership should be taken very seriously because of the UCMJ and because unhappy people can't quit with serious repercussions. Anyone can make a team be productive when you can overwork people, if things don't get done you threaten to take their money and threaten a demotion, no one can quit to get away from you, and there is a steady stream of bodies to use. Civilian leaders have to…

You clearly don't know anything about the military. If you treat your subordinates like that, you can kiss your career good-bye.

>Anyone can make a team be productive when you can overwork people, if things don't get done you threaten to take their money and threaten a demotion

It doesn't work like that.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#109

Post by LanceH »

this_steve_j wrote: post #93
mter wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to treat your NCO/officers like humans, but there's no need to care about your joes. Tell joe to get things done and they can't stop until it's done or they get extra duty. If they refuse/complain? Article 15. And no one is going to risk requesting court martial instead of just getting the article 15 so commands have pretty wide latitude to do whatever they want. > To be effective you can't just rely on shed…

Can someone please explain Article 15 in terms of an analogous civilian workplace infraction and a typical military non-judicial punishment? For example, if Joe shows up with a hangover 2 hours late for work at as a machine operator and cops an attitude with his manager, then he might get a…

Don't think of it as anything that guy is saying, because he's full of shit. Let's start with his example of the officers telling the non-rates (e=3 and below) what to do. That's already generally unrealistic. Officcer's tell nco's who manage the lower ranks.

Article 15's are also called NJP (non-judicial punishment). You stand before the commanding officer in lieu of going to trial (court martial in the military).

One outcome of bullshit article 15's like mentioned above is someone calling the CO's bluff and going to trial. This would make the officer look like a fool and could end his career right there.

The result of an NJP could be loss of rank, confinement to quarters or loss of half pay for up to 3 months. Probably the most common would be DUI's.

Re: US Army Field Manual on Leadership (1990) [pdf]

#110

Post by abwizz »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #59
warner25 wrote: post #44

It's interesting to see civilians looking to the military for leadership and management ideas. I'm a career Army officer, and when I was a young officer I looked to civilian books and other resources for management advice. Over the years, however, I've come appreciate more what the Army has written on the topic. Here's the current (2019) version of the Army's doctrine on leadership, if anyone wants to see how it has…

Historically, leadership has always been a military thing. This was really the time in which one had to lead many men and, furthermore, when the circumstances meant they would instinctively have pushed back on what was asked of them.

indeed historically.

since the dawn of the information age, men would not only instinctively push back, but also because they were better informed and could see throu the lies of their generals.

hence leadership increasinly became a civillian/political function.

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