Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding • Hacker News Board

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#101

Post by birk » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 5:35 PM UTC

traviswt wrote: post #7

Won't this just encourage maintainers to sit on issues... just waiting for the bounty to increase? They might even purposefully introduce painful but simple bugs just to push consumers to pay to have them fixed.

Polar could certainly be abused that way, but I think it's a theoretical problem more than a realistic one.

Open source operates in a marketplace today (just not an economic one) so market dynamics would flush this out imo. Intentional bugs, stale development etc would lead to user churn and/or forks. I'd argue faster within OSS where users can see how things are handled.

Having said that, I certainly think the risk of it and fraud more in general increases once an economic marketplace is formed. However, I think those problems are then "good" problems to have and easy ones to fix, e.g flagging repositories with unusually high ratio of repeat pledges, velocity of bugs etc.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#102

Post by mustache_kimono » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 5:41 PM UTC

password4321 wrote: post #42

mustache_kimono wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So a VC-funded company expected to produce unicorn returns is going to accomplish this when non-profits haven't? Business accomplishes something non-profits haven't isn't exactly a stop the presses event?

I clearly failed to sufficiently emphasize the VC unicorn part enough, my bad. Polar is a Stripe/Square for GitHub issues, expected to charge enough fees to pay for a portfolio of failed startups and still make their investors money.

I think this is a fair critique. I have my own -- "This is why this won't work..." take, and I must admit that it's a VC funded startup does make this seem less viable. It's only that I think exactly the same re: FOSS non-profits.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#103

Post by birk » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 5:42 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #82

https://ondsel.com/blog/software-bounties-are-a-dumb-idea/ Conclusion: > Bounties are a lousy foundation for sustainable development of large projects like FreeCAD. They typically represent a gross underestimation of real work required to solve a problem, commonly miss a bigger picture, and encourage worst software development practices. Growing larger is fun but also really overwhelming. Most ambitious projects that…

> will have to experiment with different approaches to getting funded on a regular basis and come up with their own mix of solutions

Couldn't agree more. Sponsoring issues/features is our 1st offering with Polar, but our goal with v1.0 is to have a suite of add-on services that maintainers can sell on-demand or as part of a subscription.

We started with issues/features since they're universal to all open source initiatives and where demand is first represented & communicated most often today. Lots of challenges to solve there too be sure, but solvable.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#104

Post by kouteiheika » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

birk wrote: post #48

password4321 wrote: post #10

So a VC-funded company expected to produce unicorn returns is going to accomplish this when non-profits haven't? It doesn't seem logical but I hope someone can pull it off! I would like to learn more about the background of the founders - what they've already done in any way related to this. Why does Polar have a chance?

That would be me :-) My name is Birk Jernström (@birk on Twitter). Been coding since I was 10y. Co-founded an e-commerce platform called Tictail back in 2011 which was acquired by Shopify in 2018. Worked there for 3y as Director of Product on the Shop.app team. In hindsight building platforms that empowers creators (one form or another) is what I love to do. As a self-taught developer thanks to open source, I'm incre…

> I'm biased of course, but I think the fact that we're VC-funded and for-profit is a good & important difference here.

For-profit is not necessarily a problem here; the VC-funded part it.

How on earth are you going to extract enough value out of it to generate a ROI that VCs are expecting? As a purely bootstraped company this could have legs, but as a VC-backed company? I'm very doubtful.

Nevertheless, best of luck to you!

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#105

Post by ThinkBeat » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:10 PM UTC

(Old man rant) For fuck's sake.

If I wanted to be a social media influencer, I'd be on Instagram / OnlyFans.

If i wanted to spend my time "an entrepreneur with superpowers to convert the community into backers", I would be running a company / start up doing sales.

I wish to write code.

Some of that code is open source. Some of it I write because someone pays me to do so.

I dont have to do any sales and that is fantastic.

So far nobody has given me money for my open-source code and that is fine.

I write my open-source tools because I admire those who came before me and all they have contributed to the world. It is a civic duty.

They gave us operating systems, compilers, databases, libraries.

When someone creates a new thing and its 90% derived from free tools with a bit of code sauce / UI on top it, call it open source and then run around wanting to get paid for it they are in the wrong pasture.

If you are wanting to make billions of dollars and you create some form of "open source" system but you get angry if someone uses it and does make money from it, you are in the wrong pasture.

Contemplate Linux, (Open)*BSD, GNU tools, Postgres and everything open source you use to make your product and none of which you have paid for. Imagine if Theo had $1 for every OpenBSD install. (I love OpenBSD) Id owe him at least a few hundred dollars. On aggregate he would be at least a millionaire.

For people who do want to inject money into open source that is great. Dont pick me.

Pick projects that are vital in the stack and who are underfunded.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#106

Post by DandyDev » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:24 PM UTC

38 wrote: post #93

harlanji wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patreon seems like the next best thing that has peoples' cards and their cut is 10%. Credit card fees alone were universally 2.9% + some cents last I checked. It's interesting that GitHub takes 0%, but that's clearly subsidized by something and I'd like to know what before I sign up to that ("clearly," because of transaction fees they're paying). 10% is a reasonable cut if they can help maintainers get from $0 to $1…

> 10% is a reasonable cut if they can help maintainers get from $0 to $1 and beyond. how you can say this with a straight face is beyond me.

HN is supposed to be a site where participants each other's opinions.

Your response feels disproportionate. As if this person is suggesting giving up your liver is a reasonable price.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#107

Post by j1elo » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #94

j1elo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds good in isolation, but as others have mentioned, in some (most?) places, accepting money like that would be considered a professional activity, and you suddenly must worry about a host of other distracting things that take time, effort, and preoccupations: incorporating, tax filings, invoicing. Or you could pay someone to manage it for you, but you're still suddenly involving yourself in stuff that you hadn't…

> In my European country, for example, having a regular source of revenue [1] requires registering with the government as an independent contractor, which costs a bit less than 400€/month. I apologize, but I actually can't believe that. Maybe you have misinterpreted some regulation or base it on hearsay? If that is truly the case, then your main goal right now should be to escape to a free country as soon as you can.…

I made a 100€ mistake in there. I misremembered the amount to be 365€, but it actually was 265€ when I worked as such, some years ago. Fares and benefits have been slowly rising over time, and seems that now the rate is 294€ [1].

There is a lot of contention between organizations of self-employed people and the government. Of course, paying that amount regardless of actual profits seems crazy. On the other hand, it goes to pay the public healthcare services which allows things like spending whatever amount of time needed for treatment in a hospital and not pay a single dime for it. All a matter of pros and cons.

[1]: https://www.healthplanspain.com/blog/expat-tips/1762-self-em...

> minimum monthly social security payment for the self-employed currently around 294 euros per month

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#108

Post by robocat » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 7:32 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #63

j1elo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the time I might spend working on consulting inquiries is not time spent on the daily job, on the oss project itself (especially if the request is about something not aligned with the roadmap of the project), or on relaxing during free time. As an oss maintainer, the way I see it is that unless the purpose itself behind the oss code is to make money via consulting, offering consulting is usually not in the intere…

Wait, if you are getting paid for adding features or fixing stuff on the OSS code, that's time spent on the project. And chances are that if somebody is willing to pay something, many other people will find use for it.

Another issue is that software developers are sometimes paid highly and are in top tax bracket. In New Zealand the top marginal tax rate is 39% (although I am guessing most software devs would be on 33% (Over $70,000 and up to $180,000) even at 33% it is not so motivating to be offered $1000 if $330 of that immediately disappears as taxes. Plus the hassle of recording amounts and declaring them - uggggh.

In California that top marginal tax rate is 13.3% so not quite the same problem as some other countries.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#109

Post by birk » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 8:52 PM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #57

birk wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be me :-) My name is Birk Jernström (@birk on Twitter). Been coding since I was 10y. Co-founded an e-commerce platform called Tictail back in 2011 which was acquired by Shopify in 2018. Worked there for 3y as Director of Product on the Shop.app team. In hindsight building platforms that empowers creators (one form or another) is what I love to do. As a self-taught developer thanks to open source, I'm incre…

> See mkdocs-material as a prime example Then I hope you provide a better system for dealing with (or allowing the maintainers to deal with) taxes. Unless the maintainer of mkdocs-material somehow funnels the earnings through a US company, I'm almost certain that it's impossible to offer what they offer while being based in Germany without violation tax rules (as what they are offering is clearly a sale and not a don…

Yes, as we expand into services that will be key. Working with tax lawyers both in the US & EU along with Stripe to make sure we make it easier for maintainers than what it is currently via other platforms.

Re: Polar v1.0: Let’s Fix Open Source Funding

#110

Post by birk » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 8:55 PM UTC

reaperman wrote: post #74

troymc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one way to do it, but it's extremely challenging. The sales tax can depend on where the buyer is located , where the buyer is from , where the seller is located, and where the seller is from. There are ~1000 jurisdictions for each of those four choices, so that makes for ~1000^4 different cases to handle. You'd also have to register as a merchant in each juridiction, and know the rules for when you have to sta…

> Maybe just offload that burden to one of them and focus on building your core innovation. I don't think that's incompatible with their model. They absolutely could use Stripe to accomplish this transparently and not sacrifice any user experience.

Yes, absolutely. Polar is built with Stripe today and will continue to be – leveraging Stripe Tax and additional offerings they have as we scale to build compliant & great user experiences at the same time.