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Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

reuters.com

101–110 of 379 posts

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#101

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

> Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. No, people buy and sell securities all the time. You simply need to follow the regulations for handling securities which includes certain types of tax and risk effort. If you keep selling securities while not following the KYC and tax stuff for those securities, you will in fact be breaking the law. Nor did the SEC magically throw down one day and start c…

>If you keep selling securities while not following the KYC

FWIW KYC "laws" are unconstitutional garbage. The government should not be able to force private companies to do the work of LEA.

And before you inevitably reply about how "it's good because it's stops XYZ"

1) It doesn't "stop" XYZ

2) I don't care, privacy and freedom are more important than catching a few more % down the long tail curve of bad guys.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#102

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

The writing would definitely be on the wall if the SEC got to make the final decision. But they don't, and they just had a big loss in court with the XRP case. If XRP isn't a security, then most other things traded on exchanges aren't securities either.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/us-judge-says-sec-lawsuit-vs-r...

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way to understand this is that the SEC is concerned about protecting unsophisticated regular folks from being scammed. If you started aggressively marketing your Pokemon cards, presenting them as financially sound investments, and regular people started putting their entire pension savings into them lured by false promises and being scammed, then the SEC might well take an interest in Pokemon cards as wel…

[flagged]

> For example I don't see the SEC going after Kilolo Kijakazi, who is actively scamming working adults under 40 every day.

Why would they? How is your social security contribution a fungible, tradable asset?

And agree or not, she's following government administration policy (which still may not survive legal challenge, but that's separate to 'securities fraud').

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#104

This is great for crypto. Justice for scammers who thought crypto users could be taken advantage of without consequence. Ponzi schemes like Celsius are not exclusive to crypto and it's great to know the Justice department will prosecute scammers regardless of the unit of currency being used.

I can't tell if this is a meme "This is good for Bit Coin" or serious. Of course the DOJ will go after anyone committing fraud?

Nope, the DOJ only prosecutes crypto fraud after bankruptcy lawyers do all the research for them. And don't get me started on Tether.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#105

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

You may be aware already, but if you replace Pokemon with Magic the Gathering cards this actually becomes almost unbelievably close to a true story (minus the SEC story arc). The first "huge" bitcoin exchange[0] was originally a Magic card exchange which got extended to support cryptocurrencies. "Mt. Gox" = "Magic the Gathering online exchange". If it hadn't been hacked it would likely be in Coinbase's shoes right now and then your hypothetical would truly be eerily accurate. But of course it was hacked, it was a trading card exchange dealing in cryptocurrencies -- a major hack was basically inevitable.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#106
post #87

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

The important difference being that Pokemon cards don't meet the Howey test: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp So yes, if finance were unregulated, then he wouldn't have been violating the securities regulations that didn't exist. But they did exist, and the Howey Test is from 1946, so it shouldn't have been a surprise. A lot of people tried to pretend that the existing financial regulations, many o…

You should care (not saying it's bad you don't!), because the philosophy of it helps us distinguish between a system in which people participate in good faith but get mislead and cling to bad behavior out of fear, vs people participating in bad faith thinking they can get away with it.

The difference is in terms of punishment and enforcement mechanisms. The person who keeps doing something bad out of fear that there's no way out is, in a sense, a failure of society as a whole. The person who is doing something bad as a way to get a leg up thinking they can get away with it is a failure of themselves to understand that society comes with a social contract.

The end results and the ultimate suffering are the same. For the first situation, we want to educate people such that they are more aware and can avoid falling into that trap, and give them ways to get out of the trap that minimize damage. For the second situation, we want to isolate the damage they can cause and prevent them from causing more damage because they are fully conscious of what they are doing and what is going on, and that makes them more dangerous.

If you mess up and get into an inextricable situation, there should be a way to resolve that with the promise of personal growth (along with guard rails to prevent repeating the same mistakes). If you deliberately cause an inextricable situation so you can profit off of it, the only resolution is to isolate the person who caused it from committing further harm until they go through personal growth such that they don't want to cause that harm anymore because they understand that harming others also means harming themselves in the big picture.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#107

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

> Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. No, people buy and sell securities all the time. You simply need to follow the regulations for handling securities which includes certain types of tax and risk effort. If you keep selling securities while not following the KYC and tax stuff for those securities, you will in fact be breaking the law. Nor did the SEC magically throw down one day and start c…

The judge in the XRP case disagreed with you today.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you’re trying to say, but honestly? All this does is hurt the reputation of crypto further. It’s yet another headline about crypto scams/ponzi scheme/etc. projected to an audience that is weary of being easily scammed out of money they believe to be safer elsewhere. No one who is skeptical or on the fence about crypto is going to see this headline and go “oh good! They must be catching the bad guys, so now…

The nice thing about Bitcoin is that it's success is not based on good/bad PR. Bitcoin has a solid technical foundation and practical use cases that has weathered every kind of criticism for over 10 years now and is still on top. Celsius and earn programs/scams like it is just another trial Bitcoin has passed through and is stronger for it.

> practical use cases

This is satire right?

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#109

Would someone explain to me what the endgame of these fraudsters is? I mean, of course they are trying to get rich quick pulling these schemes but you would believe that they do it because they perceive that there is some sort of opportunity to cash out without inevitably going to prison some day, right? What is the thought process in the mind of these criminals when shit hits the fan? Maybe just hire very expensive…

One of the things you have to understand about fraud is that much of it isn't rationally planned from the get-go. People get into situations and get caught up in the dynamics of them.

Imagine a founder. He has an idea he thinks is brilliant. A sure money-maker. He's a bit of a dreamer, and objective observers would question whether it's possible. But the nay-sayers have been wrong before, and he believes in the idea. So he goes looking for money.

As part of that process, he learns to pitch. He figures out the most convincing things to say, and how to say them with maximum persuasion. Is what he saying true or correct? That doesn't really matter. It might not even be knowable at this point. The key incentives for him are whether people respond emotionally in ways that they give him money.

So imagine he does that and he gets the money. He has some investors who expect big returns. They may not really understand the topic, but they liked his confidence, and they too started to believe. But what they really want is more money back, and their belief is going to be partly contingent on seeing that happen.

Our founder starts to spend the money, trying to make it real. Maybe the product works. Maybe he has some success selling it. (Maybe he is even selling it despite it not working, a surprisingly common outcome.) It's not going as well as he hoped, but he's still confident. He still believes. Because that's the performance his investors want for him. But he's used to putting a positive spin on things, so he tells investors what they want to hear that it's going great.

At some point, some of the investors get nervous. They expected returns. He led them to believe there would be big returns. So he pays some of those people some money. An accountant might say he has to pay them profits, not other investors' money. But the money's all jumbled up both in his head and in the world. If there's any impropriety, something his brain will anxiously skip over, he knows he'll make it right in the end. Because this is going to be a big success.

From there, the cycle continues. The founder digs the hole deeper and deeper over time. As long as he's confident, as long as he performs success, new money will keep rolling in. And with it comes hope. Maybe it will all work out! Maybe they'll be so successful that they'll pay everybody back and nobody will notice a little early corner-cutting.

Objectively, of course, things are getting more and more obviously criminal. But there's nobody objective around. The founder is instead surrounded by dupes, fools, and the complicit. To the extent that anybody honestly recognizes the criminality, they mostly don't talk about it or they get out ASAP.

So to answer your question, there is generally no planned endgame, the same way I didn't have a planned endgame for eating a lot of cheeseburgers in my 20s. I may have heard about the consequences, but they didn't affect my behavior. It's not that I had a bad plan. I not only had no plan, but didn't think enough about the future to even have a place in my mind where a plan would go.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#110

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

I think the way to understand this is that the SEC is concerned about protecting unsophisticated regular folks from being scammed. If you started aggressively marketing your Pokemon cards, presenting them as financially sound investments, and regular people started putting their entire pension savings into them lured by false promises and being scammed, then the SEC might well take an interest in Pokemon cards as wel…

> I think the way to understand this is that the SEC is concerned about protecting unsophisticated regular folks from being scammed.

Keep in mind, the people the SEC are focused on "making whole" are the investors. The actual "unsophisticated investors" who make up the bulk of Celcius's customer base are going to get next to nothing out of the settlement. However, the sophisticated institutional investors who invested directly into Celsius will get most of their money back.

It would actually be a completely different legal case if they just said "Celcius misrepresented the security of their assets". In your Pokémon example where I am scamming people, they could bust me for fraud without having to reclassify all cards everywhere. But that's not the case they are making here.

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