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Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

theguardian.com

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Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#101

Post by ffhhttt »

_hypx wrote: post #100
ffhhttt wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every single vehicle on Earth with BEVs, then the goal is already a dead one. We might replace small/personal vehicles with BEV and larger ones with hydrogen. It’s not a very good fuel source for small vehicles because of how unstable it is. You need significant amounts of energy to stop it from evaporating. For large commercial vehicles that and distribution would be much easier. > . We can see 85% efficiency and…

You mean something closer to every short-ranged EV with BEVs, and long ranged ones with FCEVs? That could work, although it would be admitting that most cars will be FCEVs. Though honestly, we'd be better off with more mass transit than short-ranged vehicles. Hydrogen is not unstable for transportation purposes. It is safer than gasoline. No. Wells to wheels efficiency, at least for large installations, would be not…

> you've swallowed a lot of BEV propaganda

Right. That’s my cue to stop.. arguing with people who say stuff like this is always pointless

> a. A fuel cell is 3x the efficiency of a conventional gasoline engine

If you include production efficiency, storage and transportation losses and fuel cell efficiency itself it’s only a bit higher than diesel if not on par.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#102

Post by _hypx »

ffhhttt wrote: post #101
_hypx wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean something closer to every short-ranged EV with BEVs, and long ranged ones with FCEVs? That could work, although it would be admitting that most cars will be FCEVs. Though honestly, we'd be better off with more mass transit than short-ranged vehicles. Hydrogen is not unstable for transportation purposes. It is safer than gasoline. No. Wells to wheels efficiency, at least for large installations, would be not…

> you've swallowed a lot of BEV propaganda Right. That’s my cue to stop.. arguing with people who say stuff like this is always pointless > a. A fuel cell is 3x the efficiency of a conventional gasoline engine If you include production efficiency, storage and transportation losses and fuel cell efficiency itself it’s only a bit higher than diesel if not on par.

Diesel has their own upstream losses. People are constantly using a double standard where they only include upstream losses for hydrogen while ignoring them for everything else. In reality, you are going to get closer to battery-levels of efficiency with fuel cells than with any other currently available idea. It's not even debatable given that fuel cells are far more efficient than ICEs.

Furthermore, given the needs of energy storage, in particular long duration energy storage, there are situations where you will be charging BEVs with hydrogen power. So it is not even a guaranteed that BEVs are more efficient than FCEVs, with the average case likely half-way between commonly claimed numbers. A gap that will shrink over time too, since efficiency of fuel cells can significantly improve.

The reason why I say "BEV propaganda" is because the arguments are totally ridiculous. Between the absurd fearmongering and claims of massive efficiency advantages, all while ignoring any and all limitations of li-ion batteries, it is clearly just a misinformation campaign. After all, since FCEVs are also EVs, why are there so many attacks on them from other EV enthusiasts? It is mostly a defensive strategy of misinformation and FUD. It is because more than anything else, FCEVs represent a disruptive threat to BEVs.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#103

Post by _aavaa_ »

imchillyb wrote: post #88
frumper wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging my car doesn't require more than my A/C, or oven, or clothes dryer. Good thing my car charges overnight, when I'm not drying clothes or cooking, and my A/C does quite a bit less work. > it makes more sense to have a system that allows for rapid refueling all the time I don't need that. That is a very rare need for me, and it's so infrequent that I'm ok with it taking a little longer than a gas pump.

> ...I don't need that. That is a very rare need for me, and it's so infrequent that I'm ok with it taking a little longer than a gas pump. "Time is money friend!" Emergency services, law enforcement, delivery services, long-range transport services, etc... all require rapid refueling. Each and every one. Your single use case does not a society make.

Time is money is great when you’ve waiting at the hydrogen refueling stating for the chillers to be ready again after the person in front of you just used them.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#104

Post by _aavaa_ »

_hypx wrote: post #98
panick21_ wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are the one making argument for hydrogen powered cars and that's totally detached from actual reality. > Cargo ships do not travel short routes With short I mean not crossing major oceans. Battery powered ships can do a lot of routes. > MOE has not actually been invented yet, and there is no evidence it will be either cheap nor scalable. It's currently very expensive and requires plenty of exotic materials to wor…

Except the most important routes are about crossing oceans. Asia to Europe or Asia to North America are very important routes. You pretty much hand waved major details here. Then show me a working MOE system. I'd love to be enlightened about a working system that went beyond lab experiment. You're the one ignoring actual expertise here. Here more people with expertise making the same claim: https://www.brinknews.com/…

> 10 times cheaper.

This is a bogus claim. Show us some hydrogen pipelines that are in operation which are thousands of kilometres in length.

And the cost is per energy. Which energy? Output energy when you get electricity at the other end? Or chemical potential energy in the H2, which is meaningless since we can’t get it all.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#105

Post by _hypx »

_aavaa_ wrote: post #104
_hypx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the most important routes are about crossing oceans. Asia to Europe or Asia to North America are very important routes. You pretty much hand waved major details here. Then show me a working MOE system. I'd love to be enlightened about a working system that went beyond lab experiment. You're the one ignoring actual expertise here. Here more people with expertise making the same claim: https://www.brinknews.com/…

> 10 times cheaper. This is a bogus claim. Show us some hydrogen pipelines that are in operation which are thousands of kilometres in length. And the cost is per energy. Which energy? Output energy when you get electricity at the other end? Or chemical potential energy in the H2, which is meaningless since we can’t get it all.

Are you really going to go around and dismiss properly sourced claims? Where is your counterevidence? And no, you cannot just concern troll your way around this. There are people with real credentials making these claims. You cannot dismiss them without evidence of your own.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#106

Post by panick21_ »

defrost wrote: post #97
panick21_ wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe 'vast majority' is an overestimation but there is a quite a lot of it. People underestimate how many routes can be done with battery powered ships. > If this is your line of argument then it deserves some refining to move past a handwave. My argument was not limited to that. I also said there are other solution that are not direct usage of hydrogen.

First up, I'm pro energy transition, so I'm essentially 'on your side'. I'd still like to see you make better arguments and work on the real world details (if you can be bothered) which will take time if you apply yourself. eg: batteries Sure .. somewhere there is the future. Right now, though, the largest installer of city scale battery parks in the world Neoen has yet to crack 10 GW installed: As at 31 December 202…

Tesla has far more then 10GW installed globally.

That said, I am against using batteries, specifically lithium batteries for grid stabilization. I much rather not have grids that need that, sadly politically this is where we are going. To actually have grid stabilizing on a large scale with batteries, new battery technologies will have to come online. Things like 'Form Energy' and stuff like that. Neither batteries nor hydrogen currently are actually good solutions. Hydrogen has a bunch of issues in this application and if you look at totally deployed vs batteries its tiny. Again, reality doesn't seem to believe hydrogen is this great grid stability solution.

I rather have nuclear and not need anything other then maybe some Lithium for peak shaving and grid stabilization. But sadly we don't live in that reality, specially in Germany.

Germany has the delusional believe that they will get cheap hydrogen from Australia and Canada. Lots of plans and 'understanding' in reality Australia doesn't even have enough green electricity to make its own grid green, and they are way behind on things like electrification for cars, trains and trucks. Australia has a very, very, very long way to go, the idea that there will be some large cheap export of Green Hydrogen from Australia in my opinion is just fantasy pushed by some politically connected people in both countries who are selling a fantasy to get government money.

The claims from 2021 that by 2023 there will be all this green hydrogen from Australia, mmmhh we are in 2023 and I like to see some data on how much import there is from Australia right now. Again, lots of announcements, lots plans, lots of 'understanding' but tiny actual numbers.

Politically steel companies are under pressure to do something. They can mix hydrogen into their existing processes and make them slightly greener. Its kind of like Hybrid cars. It will make steel more expensive and many of the plans to really scale this relay on cheap green hydrogen to really be competitive. I'm not against it but I think moving to MOE is gone both cheaper and greener.

P.S:

> Germany, the country that is leading the fight against the global warming challenge in Europe

Pretty funny claims from the country with the dirtiest energy mix in Western Europe.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#107

Post by panick21_ »

_hypx wrote: post #105
_aavaa_ wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 10 times cheaper. This is a bogus claim. Show us some hydrogen pipelines that are in operation which are thousands of kilometres in length. And the cost is per energy. Which energy? Output energy when you get electricity at the other end? Or chemical potential energy in the H2, which is meaningless since we can’t get it all.

Are you really going to go around and dismiss properly sourced claims? Where is your counterevidence? And no, you cannot just concern troll your way around this. There are people with real credentials making these claims. You cannot dismiss them without evidence of your own.

People who make grand claims based on small trial projects that have almost no commercial traction, unless you can show a source that this technology is going to have exponential growth in the next couple years.

And 'people with credentials' also believed in hydrogen cars and wide deployment of synfuels for automotive. There are lots of claims made over the last 20 years by people with credentials. But I guess you still believe in hydrogen cars so its probably not worth having this debate.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#108

Post by defrost »

panick21_ wrote: post #106
defrost wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First up, I'm pro energy transition, so I'm essentially 'on your side'. I'd still like to see you make better arguments and work on the real world details (if you can be bothered) which will take time if you apply yourself. eg: batteries Sure .. somewhere there is the future. Right now, though, the largest installer of city scale battery parks in the world Neoen has yet to crack 10 GW installed: As at 31 December 202…

Tesla has far more then 10GW installed globally. That said, I am against using batteries, specifically lithium batteries for grid stabilization. I much rather not have grids that need that, sadly politically this is where we are going. To actually have grid stabilizing on a large scale with batteries, new battery technologies will have to come online. Things like 'Form Energy' and stuff like that. Neither batteries n…

> Tesla has far more then 10GW installed globally.

Good to hear - can you provide a link to back that up?

The company I linked above installed the Tesla battery parks that are the the three largest in the world and as their current total (including those) is under 10 GW I'd like to know about the others that make up your total.

> P.S: .. Germany ..

You haven't quoted me, that's not a claim I made.

I simply used Germany as an example of one Europeans's minimum overnight baseload - feel free to pick another.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#109

Post by _hypx »

panick21_ wrote: post #107
_hypx wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really going to go around and dismiss properly sourced claims? Where is your counterevidence? And no, you cannot just concern troll your way around this. There are people with real credentials making these claims. You cannot dismiss them without evidence of your own.

People who make grand claims based on small trial projects that have almost no commercial traction, unless you can show a source that this technology is going to have exponential growth in the next couple years. And 'people with credentials' also believed in hydrogen cars and wide deployment of synfuels for automotive. There are lots of claims made over the last 20 years by people with credentials. But I guess you st…

You’re just a short-sighted naysayer. Guys like you are repeating the same garbage that anti-wind and anti-solar people said in the past. All you’re doing is proving that you have no interest in progress.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#110

Post by _aavaa_ »

_hypx wrote: post #105
_aavaa_ wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 10 times cheaper. This is a bogus claim. Show us some hydrogen pipelines that are in operation which are thousands of kilometres in length. And the cost is per energy. Which energy? Output energy when you get electricity at the other end? Or chemical potential energy in the H2, which is meaningless since we can’t get it all.

Are you really going to go around and dismiss properly sourced claims? Where is your counterevidence? And no, you cannot just concern troll your way around this. There are people with real credentials making these claims. You cannot dismiss them without evidence of your own.

This is not a properly sourced claim at all.

You have a source from where you heard about it, but if you open up the link the person simply states this as fact. They do not back up their claim with any facts or sources, they simply say it.

The onus is not on me to provide counter evidence for an unsubstantiated claim. The onus is on the person making the claim to provide evidence backing it up.

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