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The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

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101–110 of 155 posts

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#101
post #66

Business user here. I remember how much work I could get done in Outlook 2007 using a 1024x768 monitor on a crap workstation with 1GB RAM. I admit that this performance was often chilled by the many pitfalls of on-premise Exchange setups, lack of interop with non-Exchange services, and lack of standards-compatible email formats. Today's Outlook is less buggy, but slower. This new version gives me the chills. I can un…

When there are problems with fundamental features like this, it ends up feeling the software is "gaslighting" me.

Context menu key does nothing? That's weird -- I must need a new keyboard.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#102
post #16
post #2

The main problem is that Microsoft is trying to use a WebView. If they really want a single cross-platform app, they should develop a native framework that will work everywhere instead of shoving everything into a web engine.

vscode is an Electron app and is great and more responsive than its "native" competitor apps from JetBrains.

There is simply no comparison between the two. Its like comparing MS Notepad with MS Visual Studio. Jetbrains IDEs are so much ahead of even Visual Studio.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#103
post #68
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PowerBI's UI runs off of WebView and it's the most frustrating thing. That whole software feels like someone mashed together different colors of play-doh and called it a new one. There are multiple ways to do the same thing within the software, but they have differing levels of efficiency. It's a Frankenstein's Monster of technologies bundled up into this lacking visualization software.

Don’t most Microsoft products feel that way? I’m occasionally forced to use a windows machine the office gave me. Windows 11 is a new kind of janky and it also packs all the fun stuff from earlier versions. Anyway, they don’t care. Nadella has us all by the monthly subscripted balls.

>Don't most Microsoft products feel that way?

They really do. A lot of their products feel like a "too many cooks" situation where there's too many things being packed into a UI that can't exactly handle it. To make matters worse, the errors you get when something fails aren't too helpful and they are used across various Microsoft platforms. You have to always ensure you're looking for help on PowerBI vs PowerBI developer or PowerQuery.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#104
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web browser is a native cross-platform GUI framework that works everywhere -- including on the web. It's the best and most used cross-platform GUI framework that has ever existed. Why should Microsoft roll their own solution? Nobody has ever been able to make this work outside of the web browser.

Wrong - I can use Qt and QML to make an app that compiles and runs, unmodified, on Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, and others. It can even run on web with WASM. And I wouldn't call web apps "native" or "the best".

> I can use Qt and QML to make an app that compiles and runs, unmodified, on Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, and others.

As someone who is currently working on several QT apps that also work on mobile: That's an absolute lie. You need a lot of extra work to get it to work on both the desktop and mobile. Realistically you have to build the UI twice, QML is nowhere near as "responsive" as html/css. It's also prone to sluggishness.

I stick with Qt because I enjoy working in C++, it's just simpler to have the whole app in one language. My users also told me they dislike electron like you. But it's very disingenuous to tell people that Qt is "just as easy" to build desktop/mobile hybrid apps, they'll be sorely disappointed if they take your word.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#105

At work I switched from the Outlook client app to the web version as soon as we migrated our email from on-prem Exchange to MS365 (cloud hosted). Specifically, I get my email at outlook.office.com. Works great in Safari and Chrome on Mac. Searching old emails is way faster and easier in the web version. It takes up no space on my machine, and there are not thousands of potentially sensitive emails sitting on the hard…

> Searching old emails is way faster and easier in the web version. It takes up no space on my machine, and there are not thousands of potentially sensitive emails sitting on the hard drive of a laptop I carry around. Way better all around.

Do Mac computers not encrypt their drives? Like Bitlocker on Windows?

Having sensitive information on your laptop should not be a worry if your IT team does their job right.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#106
post #2

The main problem is that Microsoft is trying to use a WebView. If they really want a single cross-platform app, they should develop a native framework that will work everywhere instead of shoving everything into a web engine.

The web browser is a native cross-platform GUI framework that works everywhere -- including on the web. It's the best and most used cross-platform GUI framework that has ever existed. Why should Microsoft roll their own solution? Nobody has ever been able to make this work outside of the web browser.

>It's the best and most used cross-platform GUI framework that has ever existed.

Just because it's the best on that has ever existed, doesn't make it good. It's just the least bad.

>Nobody has ever been able to make this work outside of the web browser.

Sure would be nice if everyone would give up then and we could go back to having nice, native apps using native controls, file operations, encoding, hardware access, performance, UI/UX patterns, and security features, instead of letting all that rot on the vine while we reinvent the wheel on the browser.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#107
post #52

Microsoft has been dismantling the desktop UX for me over the past few years. I think they’re migrating the entire UI into the browser. The Office macOS UI appears and feels substantially worse to me than its Windows counterpart. I had to migrate from Windows to macOS because I was no longer feeling comfortable on Windows. My UX with the Apple office suite is by far better. Put formally, the set difference between th…

> Microsoft has been dismantling the desktop UX for me over the past few years. I think they’re migrating the entire UI into the browser.

I think it's more about trapping you in the MS365 silo than anything. They want all your data in the cloud because it makes it makes it non-portable. I think the big push they'll make after the desktop apps are replaced will be about data governance because it let's them increase lock-in.

First they'll make a 100% online workflow a possibility. Next they'll convince businesses to abandon local files because it's "too risky". Then they'll start locking down everything that could be used for "data theft", including copy / paste. At that point they effectively own your data.

And it's not far fetched for them to lock down things like copy / paste. I think that's why there's been a big push for TPM and things like Passwordless. It's a solid base for authenticated / authorized actions. Yeah, they'll use it for authenticating to websites first, but there's no reason a similar system can't be used to support signed / authorized actions between apps.

So, when you copy text, it doesn't go straight onto the clipboard. Instead, the office app uses a TPM managed key to send a signed request to MS365. The TPM will have a key enrolled for office apps and will only encrypt/sign for trusted (think code signing) office apps, so Microsoft knows the request came from an official office app. You'll be logged in, so MS can check if you're authorized to copy the content to the clipboard. The public half of your TPM managed key will be stored in your MS365 account.

If you're authorized to copy content to the clipboard, MS will encrypt it with your public key and send it back. Your clipboard will have an encrypted copy of the text. When you go to paste, the receiving app will need to ask the TPM to decrypt the payload and (remember) the TPM will only let the key be used for a specific set of trusted apps, so the copied text will never touch an app that's not authorized.

Think of taking Passwordless, adding a TPM as a requirement, and using it for a workflow of app actions rather than auth actions. That's where we're headed IMO.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#108
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong - I can use Qt and QML to make an app that compiles and runs, unmodified, on Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, and others. It can even run on web with WASM. And I wouldn't call web apps "native" or "the best".

> I can use Qt and QML to make an app that compiles and runs, unmodified, on Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, iOS, and others. As someone who is currently working on several QT apps that also work on mobile: That's an absolute lie. You need a lot of extra work to get it to work on both the desktop and mobile. Realistically you have to build the UI twice, QML is nowhere near as "responsive" as html/css. It's also prone…

That may be your experience, but for the right kind of app (e.g. simpler apps) I can confirm from experience that apart from setting up the Android app manifest, Qt apps don't need modifications to port, especially if you design convergence in from the get-go.

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#109
post #52

Microsoft has been dismantling the desktop UX for me over the past few years. I think they’re migrating the entire UI into the browser. The Office macOS UI appears and feels substantially worse to me than its Windows counterpart. I had to migrate from Windows to macOS because I was no longer feeling comfortable on Windows. My UX with the Apple office suite is by far better. Put formally, the set difference between th…

> Microsoft has been dismantling the desktop UX for me over the past few years. I think they’re migrating the entire UI into the browser. I think it's more about trapping you in the MS365 silo than anything. They want all your data in the cloud because it makes it makes it non-portable. I think the big push they'll make after the desktop apps are replaced will be about data governance because it let's them increase l…

100% afree, its all about lock in these days and I'm so over it

Re: The new desktop Outlook is a bad idea

#110
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vscode is an Electron app and is great and more responsive than its "native" competitor apps from JetBrains.

VS Code is primarily an editor, while JetBrains's products are IDEs. You can add extensions to make VS Code more an IDE. And I'd like to see benchmarks proving your point. If you're using VS Code as an editor, others like Sublime Text, Notepad++, Kate and TextMate make it seem very slow.

I mean, it’s faster than Emacs on my Mac m1.
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