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Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

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Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#101
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previously we were using flip chip where silicon was exposed. With backside power delivery, there's now wiring on both sides of the chip. The transistors are buried. The article discusses how debugging is harder since nothing is exposed, and how there's now more thermal resistance. Intel's implementation has other factors, as discussed in the Anandtech article. Normally there's a fairly thick silicon base underneath…

They must have a way to reach and debug the signal layers, at least in the lab? If not, I would intuitively think this whole approach would fail?

Why do you think it's necessary to debug signal layers by physically connecting to them (other than the I/O pins of the chip)? The only time you would actually try to connect to a chip other than through the I/O pins is in an adversarial situation.

You might want to read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_for_testing

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel, just like Boeing and to a lesser extent many other F500 companies appear to be fully financialized at this point. Their executives probably wake up each day and think about how much stock to buy back and nothing else. Do they even remember what it is the company used to do for a living?

Intel was this way, but IMO Pat Gelsinger has turned it around — as per this, their surprisingly competitive GPU perf, and hopefully Intel Foundry Services. IDK if it's enough to call it a Satya Nadella-like CEO transition, but I've been pretty impressed watching it happen.

I went with the A770 for my new desktop this year and couldn't be happier.

They did one thing in their first gen that ATI/AMD and Nvidia have always completely failed to do: release 1st party open source Linux drivers that just work without any fuzz.

I see no reason to ever even look at an Nvidia or AMD card again, for my own purposes, assuming Intel keep releasing GPUs. It's laughable how bad their drivers have always been. And Nvidia's pricing is a disgrace.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#103
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "start leading" even mean? Every CPU launch, AMD is ahead and the Intel beats them or Intel is ahead and then AMD beats them. There is no leading here. There are only wins for people who want CPUs that keep getting faster, cooler, require fewer watts to run, and overall improve generation upon generation.

It's only been perennial leapfrogging for the past several years, when AMD has been doing well with their Zen processors and Intel has been on a recovery path from their 10nm failures. But before that, there were a few stretches of several years each where Intel was solidly in the lead and AMD was always an also-ran. Intel couldn't have retained their dominant market share for decades without having those long period…

> Intel couldn't have retained their dominant market share for decades without having those long periods of undisputed technical leadership ...

That kind of misses where Intel pulled all kinds of illegal business tactics to have AMD excluded from manufacturers, etc.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's missing a rather important part of the picture. The real culpit is Brian Krzanich, who, with beloved approval from the board I assume, completely destroyed the company. The cardinal sin was being way overly aggressive on the process technology which completely failed and left intel stuck on 14nm for way too many years. They use an "inappropriate work relation" as a reason to kick him out, but that obviou…

Ahhh, thanks. I'd wondered whether the CEO prior to Bob Swan did much of the damage, as Intel were known to have fucked up the process side for years by that point. Sounds like a clear Yes then. That being said, Bob Swann was the Intels' CFO from 2016 prior to his becoming CEO. So he was still involved during the later part of Brian Krzanich's tenure.

It's more than process problems though, and really more than BK too. Intel was the proverbial termite-riddled house by the 2010s on multiple levels.

BK was COO from 2012 and CEO from 2013, and intel was already starting to spin its wheels by that point on stuff like modems and atom and wireless and lacked a proper strategic direction. It's hard to know how much internal jank was in the architectures back then but it probably wasn't insignificant, after all Core M ties back to Pentium III and P6/Pentium Pro at least.

He certainly didn't help anything but the organization that produced BK (he started as an engineer) and put him in the boardroom wasn't going to pick Lisa Su or Jensen Huang as plan B. The organizational forces that gave us BK would have put another suit in the chair and applied the same pressures to them, the problem with historical counterfactuals is always that these forces really matter more than specific individuals being in the chair in most cases.

People forget, he was literally a process engineer by trade too, it's not like he came in as a beancounter. That was all just natural pressures of the market.

On the other hand, if you count out 5 years from when he became CEO... that's around the time the problems started with 14nm (Broadwell struggled to be born) and the point where uarch performance progression really stalled out etc. And of course 14nm was followed by 10nm and the interminable delays.

But in hindsight a lot of the delays appear to have been "termite problems", yes the process was a mess but the IP teams couldn't get their shit together either, and that's why server products have been running 2+ years behind schedule, Alder Lake has its AVX-512 disabled, Meteor Lake is not happening on desktop, and 2.5GbE is going back for its... sixth stepping? Those teams are underperforming and it has nothing to do with 10nm delays.

I realize 2015-2017 is when shit started really hitting the fan but like, unless BK walked in on day 1 as CEO and was like "alright boys we're making Broadwell shitty and giving Skylake-X the worst AVX-512 implementation known to man" it's not entirely his fault either, just the termite rot was still not structural yet. Both the fab teams and IP teams were having visible problems already not too long after he took the chair.

He's not a great CEO by any means, and he actively made things worse over his tenure but... it's kinda hard to believe that he just actively made Intel shit in 4 years as CEO all by himself. They had to have had problems already, and some things like Pentium 4 and Meltdown (which goes all the way back to P6) point to that. But moore's law was the great equalizer back then... just right the ship and catch up on the next node and you'll be fine. Nodes are an active problem right now and it requires advanced packaging that is placing more emphasis on the architecture to cater around that. Things are just a lot harder now.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#105
post #13

I thought the Anandtech coverage did a bit better job filling in both background & details. https://www.anandtech.com/show/18894/intel-details-powervia-...

Ads are getting in the way on mobile. Don’t know how sites like this are going to exist. For me personally the content does not out weigh the ads

I didn't see any ads.

Reading on my phone using Firefox with adblockers. Why are you using no adblockers.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And meanwhile they're both getting cucked by Apple because the Intel/AMD brand monoliths are too heavy to make any groundbreaking/architectural changes now.

AMD's Zen 4 chips are competing with Apple's M2 on performance and at least closing the gap on efficiency. Intel's Alder Lake is losing on efficiency but is still trading blows for performance. I am generally a fan of Apple but the M2 was just a modest iteration of the M1, it's not a groundbreaking architectural change either. Even the Pro/Max/Ultra die multiplication strategy is unlikely to continue competing much l…

M2 is still quite far ahead in user-interactive tasks like browser and JVM, as shown by actual user experience in battery life. Cinebench isn't exactly the only efficiency test and Anandtech shows AMD still trailing far behind on the SPEC2017 suite (a variety of real-world applications).

In desktops (Mac Studio etc) where you can run unlimited watts, yeah Apple doesn't do as well there, but the efficiency is still amazing. And in the laptops, the actual user experience shows the cinebench numbers aren't capturing something.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#108
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD's Zen 4 chips are competing with Apple's M2 on performance and at least closing the gap on efficiency. Intel's Alder Lake is losing on efficiency but is still trading blows for performance. I am generally a fan of Apple but the M2 was just a modest iteration of the M1, it's not a groundbreaking architectural change either. Even the Pro/Max/Ultra die multiplication strategy is unlikely to continue competing much l…

M2 is still quite far ahead in user-interactive tasks like browser and JVM, as shown by actual user experience in battery life. Cinebench isn't exactly the only efficiency test and Anandtech shows AMD still trailing far behind on the SPEC2017 suite (a variety of real-world applications). In desktops (Mac Studio etc) where you can run unlimited watts, yeah Apple doesn't do as well there, but the efficiency is still am…

I'm not sure if I even trust Intel/Windows at this point. The m1 macs are just so much snappier in absolutely every way imaginable than my old 11th gen Dell. My old PC would some times take minutes (!) to fully wake up from sleep, the battery drained in a couple of hours when coding, and it was sluggish the whole time compared to plugged in performance. I plan to see if I can borrow someone's 13th gen PC and use it for a week and see how it compares. I'm not able to find any reviews that covers the user experience on and off wall power.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chip making is the first industry that was automates by computers. Much like how steam engines were first used in coal mines.

"Chip making is automated." Is not a true statement.

I can't think of a single aspect of chipmaking that is not automated to some degree. Manufacturing of semiconductors is probably the most automated thing that humans have ever managed to do in the physical world.

Re: Intel is all-in on backside power delivery

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chip making is the first industry that was automates by computers. Much like how steam engines were first used in coal mines.

"Chip making is automated." Is not a true statement.

Chip making is in a really sad state of automation. There's lots of money poured into very ingenious products, but the major incumbents have to real incentive to standardize, so you still have some unstructured file formats (SPICE) with different dialects veeery hard to parse correctly, you have ad-hoc APIs depending on vendor and software versions that all try to capture you into their ecosystem, you have half-assed attempts at standards (à la xkcd/927) that you can't rely on.

And this sad state of affairs shows no sign of evolving favorably. Closed-source software and corporate interests at their finest.

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