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Visual Studio '11' Announced

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Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#101

Developers beware: Visual C++ 11 cannot compile executables that work on Windows XP at all: https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/... C++ devs may want to skip this release and just go for Visual C++ 12 when it's out, since by then hopefully XP will be ignorable.

> Status: Closed as "By Design"

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#102
post #32

Maybe it's just me but I like the "Strong use of color" better. I find it hard to quickly find the tool button I want when they're all monochrome. I'm sure I'd get used to it, but I can't really say the colors in the GUI are my primary distraction when I'm coding...

Some of us grognards would argue that if you're having trouble finding buttons, they really shouldn't be on the screen at all. Seriously, why must IDEs look like this? Why is there screen space dedicated to documentation when I'm not reading docs? Why are there multiple horizontal bars at both the top and bottom of the full-screen display when the single most important activity in the app is scanning very long text f…

I'm no longer a .NET developer. But I was for about a decade and I got to the point that I removed all toolbars from Visual Studio. I had nothing but the text editor and solution explorer (docked and only opened when needed). I'm surprised to read many comments here where people talk about finding icons and getting lost in the toolbars. Power uses of tools like Vim, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc use the keyboard for everything, I'd have thought most VS power users do that too.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#103
post #102
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us grognards would argue that if you're having trouble finding buttons, they really shouldn't be on the screen at all. Seriously, why must IDEs look like this? Why is there screen space dedicated to documentation when I'm not reading docs? Why are there multiple horizontal bars at both the top and bottom of the full-screen display when the single most important activity in the app is scanning very long text f…

I'm no longer a .NET developer. But I was for about a decade and I got to the point that I removed all toolbars from Visual Studio. I had nothing but the text editor and solution explorer (docked and only opened when needed). I'm surprised to read many comments here where people talk about finding icons and getting lost in the toolbars. Power uses of tools like Vim, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc use the keyboard for ev…

You can easily toggle "no chrome mode" with Shift-Alt-Enter, btw.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#104
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what would you replace it with that is equally easy to recognize?

Does anyone really use "save" so infrequently that they have not memorized the keyboard shortcut? There's a reason no apps on OS X have save icons...

They mentioned they dumped the clipboard buttons because nobody uses them. I would guess the need with Visual Studio isn't so much "Save" but "Save All", which also updates various project files. (I don't know the Save All shortcut off the top of my head - I almost always use the toolbar button.)

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#105
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no longer a .NET developer. But I was for about a decade and I got to the point that I removed all toolbars from Visual Studio. I had nothing but the text editor and solution explorer (docked and only opened when needed). I'm surprised to read many comments here where people talk about finding icons and getting lost in the toolbars. Power uses of tools like Vim, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc use the keyboard for ev…

You can easily toggle "no chrome mode" with Shift-Alt-Enter, btw.

I no longer have VS available to check. Is that "no chrome mode" or really just "fullscreen" mode? I seem to remember this mode made alt-tabbing to other apps problematic for some reason. Maybe I'm wrong. I also never maximize my windows, which I believe is another reason I didn't like this mode.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#106

These are some nice concepts, but this is entirely overbaked (in my opinion). I don't find the colors of VS2k10 "distracting" me or making it "difficult" to find things at all. I am glad, however, they're removing a bunch of those useless buttons by default (of course you can always remove them yourself, but I digress). I can appreciate what they're attempting here, but why go this far without a road back? If you're…

IMO, they need to distinguish between places where icons are peripheral "chrome" and places where the icons actually represent what in the context of how you are using them is effectively "content" that you care about.

e.g. it makes sense for the standard toolbar buttons at the top to be de-emphasized (and for there to be fewer of them, bravo!) as the vast majority of the time they're on screen, I care about my code and not about the toolbar buttons. It doesn't make sense for the GUI controls available in Toolbox, for example, to "fade into the background" - presumably if I have the Toolbox open, the available controls are something I care about. Or if they're not, why is the Toolbox there taking a third of the screen? If you ever have a situation where two-thirds of the screen are consumed by "de-emphasized monochromatic chrome", you're probably doing it wrong - if they're not important you need to figure out how to reduce their physical screen presence, if they're important you can / should give them a more distinctive presentation.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Excel extensively for automated code generation. I'm not going to argue if this is a good thing or a bad thing to do, but even you have to agree that this is an extremely rare thing to do, and something that would be more or less impossible for Microsoft to anticipate you doing.

I will argue, as I don't know who the submitter is, or even what this site is. HackerNews I think? I just got here via a Twitter post. So I have nothing to lose. If you're using Excel for automated code generation, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG Surely there are better tools out there for the task.

Using tools in wrong way is a kind of entertainment for hacker. But hacker shouldn't complain if something breaks.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#108
post #102
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us grognards would argue that if you're having trouble finding buttons, they really shouldn't be on the screen at all. Seriously, why must IDEs look like this? Why is there screen space dedicated to documentation when I'm not reading docs? Why are there multiple horizontal bars at both the top and bottom of the full-screen display when the single most important activity in the app is scanning very long text f…

I'm no longer a .NET developer. But I was for about a decade and I got to the point that I removed all toolbars from Visual Studio. I had nothing but the text editor and solution explorer (docked and only opened when needed). I'm surprised to read many comments here where people talk about finding icons and getting lost in the toolbars. Power uses of tools like Vim, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc use the keyboard for ev…

I think most VS power users do that as well. I honestly can't remember the last time I clicked an icon on the toolbar.

One of the really nice things about pair programming is the number of times I've started hunting through a menu for an option and the other dev will say "Oh, just hit ".

If you spend a great deal of time in ANY application you owe it to yourself to take one day a month and force yourself to use it without ever clicking a menu or icon. You'll be delighted at how much more productive you'll be.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#109
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily toggle "no chrome mode" with Shift-Alt-Enter, btw.

I no longer have VS available to check. Is that "no chrome mode" or really just "fullscreen" mode? I seem to remember this mode made alt-tabbing to other apps problematic for some reason. Maybe I'm wrong. I also never maximize my windows, which I believe is another reason I didn't like this mode.

You're right, it's fullscreen, I actually didn't entirely realize this. (I was sort of thinking of OneNote which has its own "full window for content" toggle which isn't fullscreen)

Windows in VS10 behave oddly in general around alt-tab and other things, I haven't managed to form a mental model of how/why they do.

Re: Visual Studio '11' Announced

#110

Interesting thing about VS and Xcode is that they do not really try to compete with somebody or fight for attention. Both Windows and Mac/iOS developers would use less useful tools if they still let them make products for the popular platforms. JetBrains, Borland and others are fighting for attention and developers' love. They must try really-really hard to make people choose an alternative to the official tools. So…

XCode 4 may have been designed but it wasn't designed well. It has no mixed source/disassembly views. Hovering over the debug icons say that pressing control and clicking "step into" will step a single instruction. But this isn't a sticky setting, so if I press control and click "step into" twice, the first time will step an instruction and the second will perform a source line step. It also crashes. A lot. When doin…

The stability will get there eventually.

Xcode 3 got a lot better over the years.

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