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The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

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101–110 of 136 posts

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame I have yet to see a microdose of testosterone included in HRT.

What..? I don’t understand where this is coming from. Why on earth would we give testosterone to menopausal patients?

Estrogen/progesterone and testosterone are not exclusively female/male hormones. Testosterone may boost sex drive and increase muscle mass, as well as provide some psychological benefit in women. Estrogen is the most important regulator of bone health in both men and women. There are people with estrogen insensitivity syndrome, both men and women, and from all reports they are having an extremely uncool time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen_insensitivity_syndrom...

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#103
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

homeopathic medicine is clearly marked as such, do you disagree on this point? anyone who complains about it who doesn't have at least as strong a crusade against crap like phenylephrine is a hypocrite

That's a weird claim. Phenylephrine has a number of well documented and researched effects with demonstrable efficiency greater than that of a placebo. Now there are certainly people who have and do take it as a decongestant despite that particular usage having been shown to be ineffective, but that doesn't make it crap and it certainly doesn't place it in the same category as homeopathic remedies.

It’s used as life saving drug for critically ill patients in ICU…

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What..? I don’t understand where this is coming from. Why on earth would we give testosterone to menopausal patients?

Estrogen/progesterone and testosterone are not exclusively female/male hormones. Testosterone may boost sex drive and increase muscle mass, as well as provide some psychological benefit in women. Estrogen is the most important regulator of bone health in both men and women. There are people with estrogen insensitivity syndrome, both men and women, and from all reports they are having an extremely uncool time: https:/…

Yes but why on earth would testosterone be part of HRT for menopause?

The point is to replace what’s missing and causing symptoms.

Menopause =/= estrogen insensitivity.

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#105
post #92
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest issue, IMHO, is that clinical trials are often unethical. This is both in theory and especially in practice. I say this as a physician and clinical trial investigator. EBM deals with this by saying ‘there is no viable alternative’, a remarkable statement of epistemological nihilism that enables much low quality snd pointless research.

Can you give an example of unethical trials where “there was no viable alternative” was what got the trial past an IRB? I’m more familiar with inverse complaints that trials are blocked by red tape and hypothetical concerns that are objectively small in actual QALY harm. (I’m sure this varies by jurisdiction too; I have only heard bad thing about US IRBs)

IRBs do not evaluate the value of a research endeavour. They are in fact unable to do this due to lack of knowledge and expertise. They approve trials which fit the mold of trials they have seen before. Why does a clinical trial get done? The main reason is that someone, usually a pharmaceutical or device company, is willing to pay for it.

Some recent examples of problems with clinical trials:

1. Using a harmful or deliberately inadequate placebo. https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/104/4/273/979399 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.0... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34688044/

2. Starting a bunch of clinical trials using a biomarker which turned out to be invalid. https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa1214271

3. Endless 'me-too' trials driven by pharma, with a low chance of success. https://www.statnews.com/2019/09/04/me-too-drugs-cancer-clin...

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#106

Evidence Based Medicine is one of those things that is a good thing, but was pushed so hard by its proponents that it ended up overemphasizing a particular kind of study as the only real way to know things in medicine. Yes, absolutely, medicine should be evidence based. Yes, large randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies provide a lot of information. However, there are limitations with these kinds of stud…

> But so is physician judgment and experience.

We need to move medicine beyond the abilities of a single individual.

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#107

Evidence Based Medicine is one of those things that is a good thing, but was pushed so hard by its proponents that it ended up overemphasizing a particular kind of study as the only real way to know things in medicine. Yes, absolutely, medicine should be evidence based. Yes, large randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies provide a lot of information. However, there are limitations with these kinds of stud…

> Later, somebody did that study: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 and found that parachutes made no difference, but it is not applicable to any real world case where you would use a parachute.

As a physician you are likely aware, but for anyone reading who isn’t: this paper is from the Christmas issue of the BMJ, which publishes “joke” studies. It’s not really meant to be taken seriously in any way.

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#108
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authors' own conclusion seems to directly contradict your overall argument here: "Implications for practice The totality of evidence now supports the benefits of statins for primary prevention. The individual patient data meta-analyses now provide strong evidence to support their use in people at low risk of cardiovascular disease. Further cost-effectiveness analyses are now needed to guide widening their use to…

Generally, you read the papers for their methodology and their data — not for the author commentary; and then make up your own mind. One man’s “benefits of statins for primary prevention” is another’s “the benefits are too meager to be notable.” Please provide me literature from a reputable publication (viz. the AHA, Cochrane, or the New England Journal of Medicine), that has not been funded by a pharmaceutical compa…

> Generally, you read the papers for their methodology and their data — not for the author commentary; and then make up your own mind.

I'd say that generally it's advisable to take both into consideration given that in most cases the author of a paper likely has more domain expertise than you in that specific area. Not always, obviously, and not to the exclusion of an outside objective analysis of their data and results, but it's certainly more informative than referring someone to a page from a study with no additional context.

> that has not been funded by a pharmaceutical company

I get where you're coming from here, but it's kind of silly. And the question becomes where do you draw the line? Is a meta-analysis of a large group of studies each of which has been supported at least in part by funding from a pharmaceutical company guilty by association? That aside, the structure of research funding with regards to pharmaceuticals (at least in the US so far as I'm aware) makes the likelihood of conducting any long term, large scale study without receiving any funding from a pharmaceutical company vanishingly small. There have certainly been issues with studies funded and conducted by those companies, but that doesn't mean that all studies funded by them are instantly invalid. Nor does it mean that it's impossible to conduct a study that has received their funding without compromising its integrity. It is entirely possible to take sufficient measures to isolate those companies from the actual process and analysis of the research.

> wherein the experiment does not extrapolate from LDL values to determine mortality risk

As I made reference to earlier, I am not a subject domain expert here. That being said I did do a brief survey of the literature, reading fifteen papers published on either studies of statin efficacy or meta-analysis thereof. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but the studies I looked at assessed efficacy by looking at the actual number of cardiac events, strokes, et al suffered by those in the control and experimental groups. Their analysis was based on those numbers, not an extrapolation from LDL values.

> and/or shows a greater than 2% absolute reduction all-cause or CVD-only mortality risk.

Why that number? And why that number in two very different contexts? Regardless, statins have been show in numerous studies to be highly effective.

> while little more than weak associative studies have been published for secondary prevention

That's simply not true. There have been a number of large scale, long term studies on the efficacy of statins for secondary prevention and the preponderance of evidence is on the side of them being very effective.

Some of the studies I looked at:

Mega, J. L., Stitziel, N. O., Smith, J. G., Chasman, D. I., Caulfield, M. J., Devlin, J. J., … Sabatine, M. S. (2015). Genetic risk, coronary heart disease events, and the clinical benefit of statin therapy: an analysis of primary and secondary prevention trials. The Lancet, 385(9984), 2264–2271. doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(14)6173

- The primary focus of this study was looking at the efficacy of statins with relations to genetic risk profiles, but as a component of that we can see the overall efficacy of the statins across those risk profiles as well.

- "The relative risk reductions were 34% in low, 32% in intermediate, and 50% in high genetic risk score categories in the primary prevention trials, and 3% in low, 28% in intermediate, and 47% in high genetic risk score categories in the secondary prevention trials. When the data were combined, the gradient of relative risk reductions with statin therapy across low, intermediate, and high genetic risk score categories were 13%, 29%, and 48%, respectively (p value for trend=0·0277, figure 2)."

- "With a focus on the primary prevention trials, in JUPITER, the number needed to treat to prevent one coronary event in 10 years was 66 for those individuals with a low genetic risk score, 42 for those with an intermediate score, and 25 for those with a high score. In ASCOT, the number needed to treat to prevent one coronary heart disease event in 10 years was 57, 47, and 20, respectively, across the three genetic risk score categories."

MRC/BHF Heart Protection Study of cholesterol lowering with simvastatin in 20 536 high-risk individuals: a randomised placebocontrolled trial. (2002). The Lancet, 360(9326), 7–22. doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(02)09327-3

- "All-cause mortality was significantly reduced (1328 [12·9%] deaths among 10 269 allocated simvastatin versus 1507 [14·7%] among 10 267 allocated placebo; p=0·0003), due to a highly significant 18% (SE 5) proportional reduction in the coronary death rate (587 [5·7%] vs 707 [6·9%]; p=0·0005), a marginally significant reduction in other vascular deaths (194 [1·9%] vs 230 [2·2%]; p=0·07), and a non-significant reduction in non-vascular deaths (547 [5·3%] vs 570 [5·6%]; p=0·4). There were highly significant reductions of about one-quarter in the first event rate for non- fatal myocardial infarction or coronary death (898 [8·7%] vs 1212 [11·8%]; pSever, P. S., Dahlöf, B., Poulter, N. R., Wedel, H., Beevers, G., Caulfield, M., … Östergren, J. (2003). Prevention of coronary and stroke events with atorvastatin in hypertensive patients who have average or lower-than-average cholesterol concentrations, in the Anglo-Scandinavian Cardiac Outcomes Trial—Lipid Lowering Arm (ASCOT-LLA): a multicentre randomised controlled trial. The Lancet, 361(9364), 1149–1158. doi:10.1016/s0140-6736(03)1294

- "The primary endpoint of non-fatal myocardial infarction, including silent myocardial infarction, and fatal CHD was significantly lower by 36% (hazard ratio 0·64 [95% CI 0·50–0·83], p=0·0005) in the atorvastatin group than in the placebo group (figure 2, table 3)."

- "There were also significant reductions in four of the seven secondary endpoints, some of which incorporated the primary endpoint: total cardiovascular events including revascularisation procedures (21%); total coronary events (29%); the primary endpoint excluding silent myocardial infarction (38%); and fatal and non-fatal stroke (27%, figures 3 and 4). All-cause mortality was non-significantly reduced by 13%, with non-significantly fewer cardiovascular deaths (figures 3 and 4) and no excess of deaths from cancer (81 assigned statin vs 87 assigned placebo) or from other non-cardiovascular causes (111 vs 130)."

It appears that the evidence in support of the use of statins is quite overwhelming.

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#109

Evidence Based Medicine is one of those things that is a good thing, but was pushed so hard by its proponents that it ended up overemphasizing a particular kind of study as the only real way to know things in medicine. Yes, absolutely, medicine should be evidence based. Yes, large randomized, double blind, placebo controlled studies provide a lot of information. However, there are limitations with these kinds of stud…

> Later, somebody did that study: https://www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k5094 and found that parachutes made no difference, but it is not applicable to any real world case where you would use a parachute. As a physician you are likely aware, but for anyone reading who isn’t: this paper is from the Christmas issue of the BMJ, which publishes “joke” studies. It’s not really meant to be taken seriously in any way.

But there is a serious point to be made, of course. This study involved jumping from stationary airplanes on the ground, which negates the whole point of a parachute (and hence, the control group survived just fine). It therefore "proved" that you don't need a parachute when jumping from an airplane, on the assumption that the results extrapolate to higher altitudes.

Nonsense, of course. But then there's a lot of randomized, controlled trials out there that are just as flawed, only in ways that are non-obvious to non-physicians, or even physicians with different specialities. "Study X proved Y" is never as straightforward as it seems to the lay public.

Re: The Rise and Fall of Evidence Based Medicine (1998) [pdf]

#110
post #26

(2020) Will COVID-19 be evidence-based medicine’s nemesis? https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/jo... "It is surely time to turn to a more fit-for-purpose scientific paradigm. Complex adaptive systems theory proposes that precise quantification of particular cause-effect relationships is both impossible (because such relationships are not constant and cannot be meaningfully isolated) and unnecess…

Sounds extremely susceptible to quackery and hand-waving appeals to authority.

The author of the article was in favor of face masks even in the early stages of the COVID pandemic. Meanwhile, the mask opponents concluded from the principles of evidence-based medicine that masks are not effective. During a pandemic, there is no time to wait for 10 years until sufficient evidence accumulates. If evidence-based medicine cannot be used in the case of pandemics, an improved methodology is needed.
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