Live data from Hacker News

Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

simonwillison.net

101–110 of 319 posts

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#101

I don't get it... These are PROFESSIONAL lawyers that have gone to years of law school. How do they not know how to double check an answer from ChatGPT? I'm sure there's databases of cases online, it shouldn't be this difficult.

Idiots come in many sizes.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#102
post #7

No, it did not “double-check”—that’s not something it can do! And stating that the cases “can be found on legal research databases” is a flat out lie. What’s harder is explaining why ChatGPT would lie in this way. What possible reason could LLM companies have for shipping a model that does this? It did this because it's copying how humans talk, not what humans do. Humans say "I double checked" when asked to verify so…

If they wanted a ‘double’ check then perhaps also check yourself? I’m sure it would have been trivially easy to check this was a real case.

I heard someone describe the best things to ask ChatGPT to do are things that are HARD to do, but EASY to check.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#103
Q. Can you lie?

A. As an artificial intelligence model developed by OpenAI, I don't have personal emotions, thoughts, or intentions, so I don't lie in the way humans do. My purpose is to provide accurate and helpful information based on the training I've received. However, it's important to note that the information I provide is only as accurate as the data I was trained on. If there's inaccurate or misleading information in that data, I might unintentionally output incorrect or misleading information. But this isn't considered "lying" in the human sense because it doesn't involve any intentional deceit on my part.

A: How do you know it didn't really "involve any intentional deceit"?

Q: As an AI model, I don't have consciousness, emotions, or intentions. The concept of "intention" applies to beings with consciousness and subjective experiences, which AI, including me, does not possess. I generate responses purely based on patterns learned during training, and there's no intent behind them because I don't have a mind, thoughts, or consciousness.

When I state there's no "intentional deceit," it's based on this understanding of AI. AI does not make choices or decisions the way a human would. If a mistake or inaccuracy occurs in my responses, it's due to limitations in the data I was trained on or in my design, not because of a deliberate attempt to mislead or deceive. AI functions based on its programming and training, not on intentions or conscious thought.

Q: That's begging the question though. Your answer takes for granted that you "don't have a mind, thoughts, or consciousness". What if actual consciousness (say, in humans) is also "based on patterns learned during training", only different being that human training involves sensory experience and not just a corpus of text and images?

A: Your question delves into one of the most fascinating and debated topics in the fields of cognitive science, philosophy, and AI: the nature of consciousness. As of my last update in September 2021, there's no universally accepted definition of consciousness or a definitive understanding of its mechanisms.

We do understand that human consciousness is associated with our brains, which process a wide range of sensory and internal information, and it's accompanied by a subjective experience — an "inner life" or "qualia". This isn't something we've observed or been able to replicate in AI.

AI models like me, based on GPT-4 architecture, operate on patterns in data. The way I generate responses is by predicting the next piece of text based on what I've learned from the corpus of text I was trained on. However, there's no subjective experience involved in this process — there's no "I" that's interpreting or experiencing anything. I don't have a concept of self, and I don't have feelings or personal thoughts.

While some AI models can mimic aspects of human behavior or cognition to a certain extent, there's a vast difference between mimicking and actually experiencing. When it comes to consciousness — the inner subjective experience — we don't have evidence that AI can possess this feature.

Your question is profound and important, and scientists, philosophers, and AI experts are continuously exploring these topics. The answers, however, are likely to remain uncertain for a while.

Q: So, theoretically at least, a future model of the GTP architecture could be conscious and even lie?

A: Theoretically, it's possible that future advances in AI and cognitive science could lead to the development of systems that possess some form of consciousness. However, as of my knowledge cutoff in September 2021, there's no consensus among scientists and AI researchers that this is achievable or even definable in the context of AI.

The concept of a machine consciousness would likely require a significant evolution of our understanding of both consciousness and AI. It might require capabilities far beyond pattern recognition and prediction, which are the fundamental basis of current AI systems like the GPT-4 model. It might also necessitate a rethinking of ethical and philosophical considerations surrounding AI.

In terms of an AI "lying," if future AI systems were developed to simulate a higher level of cognitive complexity, including the ability to simulate deceptive behavior, they could potentially generate outputs that are intentionally misleading. However, it's important to understand that this would not be lying in the human sense. It would be a result of the programming and functionality that the AI has been designed to exhibit, not a conscious choice made by the AI.

It's also critical to note that OpenAI and many other AI research and development organizations are committed to ensuring the ethical use and development of AI technologies. If an AI were to exhibit behavior that could harm people, such as deceptive behavior, it would be seen as a serious ethical issue that would need to be addressed.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#104
post #60
post #7

No, it did not “double-check”—that’s not something it can do! And stating that the cases “can be found on legal research databases” is a flat out lie. What’s harder is explaining why ChatGPT would lie in this way. What possible reason could LLM companies have for shipping a model that does this? It did this because it's copying how humans talk, not what humans do. Humans say "I double checked" when asked to verify so…

ChatGPT did exactly what it is supposed to do. The lawyers who cited them are fools in my opinion. Of course OpenAI is also an irresponsible company to enable such a powerful technology without adequate warnings. With each chatGPT response they should provide citations (like Google does) and provide a clearly visible disclaimer that what it just spewed may be utter BS. I only hope the judge passes an anecdotal order…

There's no possible adequate warning for the current state of the technology. OpenAI could put a visible disclaimer after every single answer, and the vast majority would assume it was a CYA warning for purely legal purposes.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#105

Hilarious. It’s important to remember: 1) ChatGPT is not a research tool 2) It sort of resembles one and will absolutely act like one if you ask it to, and it it may even produce useful results! But… 3) You have to independently verify any factual statement it makes and also 4) In my experience the longer the chat session, the more likely it is to hallucinate, reiterate, and double down on previous output

This is completely true but completely in conflict with how many very large companies advertise it. I’m a paid GitHub Copilot user and recently started using their chat tool. It lies constantly and convincingly, so often that I’m starting to wonder if it wastes more time than it saves. It’s simply not capable of reliably doing its job. This is on a “Tesla autopilot” level of misrepresenting a product but on a larger scale. I hope it continues being little more than a benign or embarrassing time-waster.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#107
post #7

No, it did not “double-check”—that’s not something it can do! And stating that the cases “can be found on legal research databases” is a flat out lie. What’s harder is explaining why ChatGPT would lie in this way. What possible reason could LLM companies have for shipping a model that does this? It did this because it's copying how humans talk, not what humans do. Humans say "I double checked" when asked to verify so…

ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. It was given a sequence of words and tasked with producing a subsequent sequence of words that satisfy with high probability the constraints of the model. It did that admirably. It's not its fault, or in my opinion OpenAI's fault, that the output is being misunderstood and misused by people who can't be bothered understanding it and project their own ideas of how it should function…

Whether a statement is true or false doesn’t depend on the mechanism generating the statement. We should hold these models (or more realistically, their creators) to the same standard as humans. What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth? Let’s hold the creators of these models accountable, and everything will be better.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#108

See, this is the sort of thing that makes me suspicious about the current AI hype (well, that, plus it’s largely the same people who were going on about cryptocurrency changing the world a few years ago); this stuff just isn’t very _useful_. Like, if writing plausible lies is the 2020s AI boom’s killer app, well, that’s not great, really.

AI is definitely useful for creative fields. Take a look at the recent "generative fill" feature from Adobe, just watch that video. AI is also super useful for math and programming - because it gives ideas. They may be flawed a bit, they may miss crucial details, but sometimes that creative hallucinating perspective is all you need to get the job done.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#109

I don't get it... These are PROFESSIONAL lawyers that have gone to years of law school. How do they not know how to double check an answer from ChatGPT? I'm sure there's databases of cases online, it shouldn't be this difficult.

If the whole covid vaccine debate taught me one thing is that there are idiots in every jobs, even the most qualified.

Re: Lawyer cites fake cases invented by ChatGPT, judge is not amused

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ChatGPT did not lie; it cannot lie. It was given a sequence of words and tasked with producing a subsequent sequence of words that satisfy with high probability the constraints of the model. It did that admirably. It's not its fault, or in my opinion OpenAI's fault, that the output is being misunderstood and misused by people who can't be bothered understanding it and project their own ideas of how it should function…

Whether a statement is true or false doesn’t depend on the mechanism generating the statement. We should hold these models (or more realistically, their creators) to the same standard as humans. What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth? Let’s hold the creators of these models accountable, and everything will be better.

> What do we do with a human that generates plausible-sounding sentences without regard for their truth?

Elect them as leaders?

Post reply on HN