What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#101

Post by Nevermark » Tue, May 23, 2023, 1:45 AM UTC

SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

> The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" [...]

I would have opted out. But I never figured out how to be "in"!

I suspect a lot of people forging their own paths didn't really choose too, although they might assume they did.

When you see things differently, you don't just have different visions of where to go, but an aversion to those well worn paths that often seemed inexplicably depressingly difficult.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#102

Post by mistermann » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

aeturnum wrote: post #84

giantg2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"definitely a different thing!" Is it in all cases though? People with stuff like oppositional defiant disorder might be predisposed to act that way through biology.

Sure - but the part I quoted is urging people to consider that they themselves might choose not to "follow the swarm" as it were. I think you could use this example to argue that a lot of the diversity in how human brains work (autism, adhd, oppositional defiant disorder like you said) should be viewed as a strength and a source of alternative and interesting viewpoints that are grounded in biological difference we s…

> But - people in those situations don't chose how their brains work.

It makes one wonder how much choice you have in believing otherwise... After all, such things may not be knowable, at this point in time anyways.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#103

Post by mmis1000 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:11 AM UTC

This reminds me the simulated annealing algorithm programs used to find answers for a problem that can't be perfectly resolved by brute-forcing in constant time. By search the easiest way and introduce randomness at same time. You can avoid being trapped into local maximum, just like bees here do.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#104

Post by bee_rider » Tue, May 23, 2023, 2:19 AM UTC

bloppe wrote: post #74

zentropia wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker ants are all sister and they don't reproduce, so no problem letting others do the hard work.

True. The evolutionary success of ants happens at the colony level rather than the individual level, so they have an evolutionary pressure to "unfairly" divide the labor like this if it's more efficient overall. I'm sure there is no "awkwardness" for them. We humans cannot evolve this way because it disadvantages the productive ones. No wonder communism works so well for ants and bees. (Not saying successful communis…

Evolution is working for it, on those smaller scales, though. Families will happily help each other, friends don’t need a detailed ledger to figure out who’s buying the next round. Most people have a good inherent sense of fairness I think.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#105

Post by vermilingua » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

eep_social wrote: post #88

kurthr wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important point. I also see it when people talk about drones vs workers vs Queen in a hive. All of the other bees really are effectively arms of the Queen. The Queen lives 1-3years before another queen takes over, while the rest of the bees live 7 weeks. She mates once, but her drones are just a bunch of flying sexual organs than can mate with multiple outside queens several seasons each year. She can stin…

Worker bees die when they sting mammals because mammal skin retains the barbed stinger tip. However, workers are not inherently one-shot stingers in all cases.

And mammal skin retains the stinger because the barbs were evolved for that purpose, so that venom glands continue to drive venom into the stung animal.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#106

Post by sclarisse » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:15 AM UTC

batch12 wrote: post #100

sclarisse wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> TIL 3-2-1 Contact lied to me. Unthinkable! Why, next thing I suppose you’ll impugn Mathnet for fibbing.

You would have better luck pressing ghostwriter for sources.

“Monday. 9:43 AM. The economy had gotten so bad in New York that people couldn’t afford to eat in restaurants anymore; instead they brown bagged it at their desks. They didn’t eat food at their desks, just brown bags.”

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#107

Post by knodi123 » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:16 AM UTC

LesZedCB wrote: post #58

SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

some ants love to work, it brings them meaning. some ants love to mountain bike, and who can blame them?

sounds like we need a universal basic antcome.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#108

Post by deburo » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:17 AM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #104

bloppe wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. The evolutionary success of ants happens at the colony level rather than the individual level, so they have an evolutionary pressure to "unfairly" divide the labor like this if it's more efficient overall. I'm sure there is no "awkwardness" for them. We humans cannot evolve this way because it disadvantages the productive ones. No wonder communism works so well for ants and bees. (Not saying successful communis…

Evolution is working for it, on those smaller scales, though. Families will happily help each other, friends don’t need a detailed ledger to figure out who’s buying the next round. Most people have a good inherent sense of fairness I think.

It’s also pretty easy to imagine a family member to whom money is never given because he cannot be trusted.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#109

Post by bloomingeek » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:19 AM UTC

Nevermark wrote: post #101

SeanAnderson wrote: post #43

The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" reminds me of a paper regarding the tunneling and movement behavior of ants: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/science/ants-worker-idlen... The gist of it is that 30% of studied ants do 70% of the work in digging tunnels. Other ants come in, see that it is too crowded, and don't try to force their way in in an effort to prove they're working hard to the other ants…

> The whole "opt out of expected group-think behavior" [...] I would have opted out. But I never figured out how to be "in"! I suspect a lot of people forging their own paths didn't really choose too, although they might assume they did. When you see things differently, you don't just have different visions of where to go, but an aversion to those well worn paths that often seemed inexplicably depressingly difficult.

Very nice answer! For me it was always about being myself, not that I had much against the 'in' crowd, I just wasn't interested enough to play along, they weren't me and I wasn't them.

Re: What if you did the exact opposite, like rogue bees do (2020)

#110

Post by jojobas » Tue, May 23, 2023, 3:44 AM UTC

How is it rogue? In order to find new food sources some bees have to search for them, rather than use existing knowledge. How they choose whether to scout or forage existing is of some interest of course, but this is interest is outside of suggested human behaviour models.