Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#101

Post by basisword » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #72

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

Because that argument can have no refutation, jor any clear verification. You wont find a control group that lives the same life as these kids but without a cell phone. You can't teleport these kids 50 years earlier etc. So we're bound to hear hot takes that have no other substanciation than "it makes logical sense" My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away. In contra…

>> My main issue with these hot takes is that it doesn't help, as smartphone aren't going away.

They could go away. We regulate lots of harmful things that young people want access to. Most commonly alcohol and cigarettes. It could become illegal for anyone under 16 to be in possession of a smartphone (or anyone over x to give/sell a smartphone to anyone under x years). Social networks could be fined for every single person under x years that signs up.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#102

Post by dumpsterlid » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:00 PM UTC

IceHegel wrote: post #49

Clubber wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's the addictive content readily accessible therein. That should be questioned too. We don't know what's causing it. It might be the parents consuming of polarizing / doomsday politics effecting their interaction with the kids. It could be parents forced to work more because of costs. It could be the after effects of Covid. It could be that therapy became normalized and kids were always this way, but it's much mor…

> We don’t know what’s causing it. Speculatively, I’d say it’s social media for girls (instagram, tiktok, snapchat) and porn for boys.

[dead]

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#103

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation

You can also get causation and correlation reversed. Think about it: "The longer a teen uses (per day) smartphone the more he/she is depressed" could also be "The more depressed teens tend to have more smartphone use per day because they are depressed".

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#104

Post by tssva » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:01 PM UTC

rtpg wrote: post #6

[flagged]

It is even worse because the participants in the survey were not randomly selected. They instead must choose to visit the Sapiens Labs website to complete the survey. Taking the survey is encouraged through advertising.

I can't say for certain but I imagine that voluntarily visiting a website to complete a mental health survey might appeal more to those with mental health issues thus skewing the data. Also you may have some people that visit to purposely give false data. Very much not unheard of in internet polls. I have no real idea how much either of these have affected the data but it makes me very suspect of the data. If you can't trust the data you can't trust any studies based upon it.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#105

Post by canyonero » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

Giving children and teens unfettered access to social media and the internet seems to be more of a problem to me than any particular piece of hardware. The cell phone I had access to as a teen was a flip phone from Virgin Mobile that ran on "minutes". There was no web browser, no apps. I used it for texting and calling.

It's up to parents to control access to the content (unfortunately, the tools and hardware that exist for this sucks, which is unfortunate). So if you're dropping an unlocked iphone into your kids lap and walking away, well then maybe you're putting them at risk and neglecting them (which might be further causing mental health issues.)

My daughter is young now, but I will eventually run into this as she gets older. I've thought about this issue and I plan to lock down the content (either via software or targeted hardware) until she's an adult.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#106

Post by psychomugs » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> bully each other at a scale

A phrase I didn't know I needed to learn.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#107

Post by dumpsterlid » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:02 PM UTC

rcme wrote: post #5

This is only tangentially related to the main point of this piece, but it's a bit concerning that the average 18-24 yo of both genders has a mental health quotient somewhere between struggling, managing, and enduring, as opposed to succeeding and thriving.

[dead]

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#108

Post by lukeasrodgers » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

From folks making the correlation vs causation argument here, I would like to hear their rebuttal to the points the author already laid out in this article https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/social-media-mental-ill..., especially the section on quasi experiments.

Do we just think that because it is probably impossible to conduct pure double-blind RCTs in human populations, it is therefore impossible to reasonably attribute causality to anything on a social scale, and our efforts to understand and maybe even shape social outcomes are thus inherently pointless?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#109

Post by trinix912 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

IceHegel wrote: post #49

Clubber wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's the addictive content readily accessible therein. That should be questioned too. We don't know what's causing it. It might be the parents consuming of polarizing / doomsday politics effecting their interaction with the kids. It could be parents forced to work more because of costs. It could be the after effects of Covid. It could be that therapy became normalized and kids were always this way, but it's much mor…

> We don’t know what’s causing it. Speculatively, I’d say it’s social media for girls (instagram, tiktok, snapchat) and porn for boys.

As if it’s impossible for boys to have body image issues because of all those Instagram models.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#110

Post by rowanG077 » Mon, May 15, 2023, 3:05 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #103

alexb_ wrote: post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

> But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation You can also get causation and correlation reversed. Think about it: "The longer a teen uses (per day) smartphone the more he/she is depressed" could also be "The more depressed teens tend to have more smartphone use per day because they are depressed".

This would imply depressed kids get smartphones earlier. Which is a pretty large unexplained leap.