Research finds no gender bias in academic science • Hacker News Board

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#101

Post by Dylan16807 » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #50

hackernewds wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which wealth class do you reckon pays more property taxes?

It doesn’t really matter how much tax is paid by “the rich” (say, top 1 in 1000), because collectively, they make too little money to make much of a difference even if we taxed 100% of their income. What does matter is taxation on top 20% of population, and they do pay a lot of money on property taxes.

The income (including capital gains) of the top tenth of a percent are more than 10% of total income.

The average federal income tax is under 15%.

It would make a ridiculously large difference.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#102

Post by fuzzybiscuit » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:32 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #47

tristor wrote: post #46

Looks like what the study and source material actually show is a bias against men. I'm guessing they don't consider this a bias though, and think it's just desserts, as seems to be the current model in academia. Both in hiring and in graduation rates, there is a bias against men shown in the data in this paper.

That will need some support. Citation please?

its in the linked paper.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#103

Post by hombre_fatal » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:45 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #8

rajin444 wrote: post #5

The focus on group outcomes as opposed to efficacy of the discipline is a sign of a sick culture. Groups are fighting over spoils instead of working to solve hard problems and push humanity forward. Ironically, it’s a complacency enabled by those who came before and didn’t have as much concern over the racial / gender / etc makeup of an industry. They succeeded to such a degree our society can afford to waste entire…

The NBA cares. In terms of bottom line, they are helped by having diverse players. Yao Ming opened the game up to a billion audience market. Top jersey sales often go to rising white stars in the game. Ones of the pushes in the league is to make foreign European players appeal more to white Americans. We’re not trying to have the league match US demographics, but make no mistake that diversity is a big deal to the NB…

That just sounds like celebrity, and a celebrity that might come from the fact that there’s only one Yao Ming, not a bunch of them. That seems to work against your supposed argument that NBA should want larger NBA-minority groups.

I don’t think the modern push for diversity means hire a few token members of each minority and them reap their celebrity status.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#104

Post by gambiting » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

eru wrote: post #56

gambiting wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unheard of - people inherit great houses in fantastic locations that they have no money to keep and which they can't sell otherwise for various legal reasons. You're poor despite living in prime estate and despite theoretically having a net worth into 6 digits.

What kinds of legal reasons?

You live in the place already but there are inheritance matters still waiting to be settled. Or you inherit 20% along with 4 other siblings, they don't want to sell but they won't contribute or live in the place. Or you might simply not have the money for the legal process to sell. The place might need work before you could even put it on the market but you don't have the money for it.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#105

Post by geraldwhen » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #89

geraldwhen wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial aid is not race blind. There are no schools near me that have merit scholarships for white people, but plenty have merit scholarships for non whites. I’ve researched this because I have kids, and where I grew up merit scholarships applied to all, but where I live now they will not receive any, at least in state. Unlike my parents, however, I’m not dirt poor and can set my kids up for success. If not for a m…

Merit scholarships run the gamut. I typically don’t bucket merit scholarships in with financial aid because it is often need blind. And while there are probably few if any explicit scholarships for white students there are several that have never gone to anything but. Lots of organizational scholarships where nearly everyone in the org is white. Or even large orgs that tilt heavily white such as DAR and the Elks Lodg…

There are 0 merit scholarships available to whites. All scholarships at the major state universities in my state have a race based restriction.

So the scholarships aren’t merit, or , but race + merit, presumably to help filter out and select applicants.

I was shocked when I found this information; I assumed that most states had race-blind merit scholarships, but that isn’t the case I guess.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#106

Post by dragonwriter » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 7:07 PM UTC

geraldwhen wrote: post #105

kenjackson wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merit scholarships run the gamut. I typically don’t bucket merit scholarships in with financial aid because it is often need blind. And while there are probably few if any explicit scholarships for white students there are several that have never gone to anything but. Lots of organizational scholarships where nearly everyone in the org is white. Or even large orgs that tilt heavily white such as DAR and the Elks Lodg…

There are 0 merit scholarships available to whites. All scholarships at the major state universities in my state have a race based restriction. So the scholarships aren’t merit, or , but race + merit, presumably to help filter out and select applicants. I was shocked when I found this information; I assumed that most states had race-blind merit scholarships, but that isn’t the case I guess.

> There are 0 merit scholarships available to whites.

False. There are both non-school private, school-based, and many state programs open to Whites, and, in fact, whites receive them disproportionately under many of the programs. [0]

> All scholarships at the major state universities in my state have a race based restriction.

Even if that’s true (and the claim is vague enough that is impossible to conclusively falsify without reviewing the scholarships available at major state universities in all 50 states), there is a big difference between “there are no merit scholarships available to whites” and “there are no merit scholarships funded at the major state universities in my unspecified state that are open to whites” (and even if the latter was true, there are non-school-specific merit scholarships open to Whites that could be used at those schools.)

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/05/07/merit-sc...

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#107

Post by enkid » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 7:30 PM UTC

Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #97

enkid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guys argument is based on a meta-analysis which has nothing at all to do with the argument he is making. The meta analysis in question ( https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED610568.pdf ) is talking about how different research techniques measure data in different ways and therefore can't be easily compared. He then takes a look at this data, determines that it means interventions don't work very well (he doesn't…

The specific quote given, however, is not from your link but from Pathways to Inequality: Between-District Segregation and Racial Disparities in School District Expenditures [0]. >From this table, we can see that on average, both Black and Latinx total per pupil expenditures exceed White total per pupil expenditures by $229.53 and $126.15, respectively. That being the case it is possible that GP simply means to bring…

Also from the article you quote: "We find that as Black–White racial segregation increases over time, total per pupil expenditures and other per pupil expenditures shift in ways that disfavor the typical Black student’s district relative to the typical White student’s district. We also find that Latinx–White segregation is associated with a relative shift of per pupil infrastructure expenditures that disfavors the typical Latinx student’s district and a shift of per pupil other expenditures that favors the typical Latinx student’s district."

So, still doesn't seem better for the argument that's trying to be made.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#108

Post by George83728 » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 7:40 PM UTC

hajile wrote: post #84

George83728 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my area, private schools routinely offer much better education at a fraction of the expenditure per child. Loads of money simply disappears into the corruption of the school system, but private schools know doing that means students will leave and they’ll go bankrupt. As you've identified, it's not because of funding, but it's not because private schools care more either. It's because private schools can kick ou…

In my observation, private schools (outside the most ritzy ones) are usually VERY hesitant to remove students because they can’t afford the revenue loss while public schools get the same money either way. The ability to separate good students (regardless of financial or ethnic background) so they can learn without disruption from kids not wanting to learn is a huge positive. Lots of brilliant kids are held back by th…

The sort of private schools who retain lots of disruptive poor performers because of the money aren't the sort of private schools that perform well as schools. My statement that "private schools all [kick out bad students]" is an oversimplification because some private schools definitely specialize in admitting bad students from rich families. But those schools of last resort aren't the schools that are sought after by anybody who could instead send their children to a school with strict behavior and performance requirements. The desirable private schools are selective because being selective makes them desirable.

But at American public schools? A student flunking so hard they have to repeat a grade, once a fairly common occurrence, has become almost unheard of because turning a blind eye to misbehavior and performance has become the path of least resistance to each individual teacher and administrator. School administrators have no incentive to maintain the school's reputation because the school's reputation was never important in the first place. They don't have to sell parents on the merits of the school because they get incoming students and funding by default. The teachers who try to uphold standards get beaten down by the system, crushed with mountains of paperwork and are accused of being the reason that student behaves poorly. And so you get American public school systems where half the graduating students are functionally illiterate and everybody in the system pretends not to notice.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#109

Post by tpoacher » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 8:15 PM UTC

So, the conclusion is that in terms of the typical metrics used to get a job in academia (i.e. grant funding and publications) there is no difference between men and women. But there is a difference in terms of getting a job per se (with women hired more than men). But that's ok because the metrics that one tries to tick to get hired are equal. Therefore there is no evidence of sex discrimination.

It's a bit like saying, we found that the CEO works the same hours as their workers (productivity metric), but the pay (i.e. the intended reward for achieving said productivity measured by said metric) was not the same because of the CEO's massive bonus. BUT, since the hours worked are the same, we conclude that there's no pay discrimination. Wat?

There may genuinely be no sex discrimination involved, and I'm inclined to believe that this is indeed the case; but to me the argument above is not as much in support of this statement as the authors seem to think it is.

Re: Research finds no gender bias in academic science

#110

Post by geraldwhen » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 8:21 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #106

geraldwhen wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 0 merit scholarships available to whites. All scholarships at the major state universities in my state have a race based restriction. So the scholarships aren’t merit, or , but race + merit, presumably to help filter out and select applicants. I was shocked when I found this information; I assumed that most states had race-blind merit scholarships, but that isn’t the case I guess.

> There are 0 merit scholarships available to whites. False. There are both non-school private, school-based, and many state programs open to Whites, and, in fact, whites receive them disproportionately under many of the programs. [0] > All scholarships at the major state universities in my state have a race based restriction. Even if that’s true (and the claim is vague enough that is impossible to conclusively falsi…

I received state university scholarships for merit. My kids cannot because I moved and they are white. I’m not sure how this is reasonable in anyone’s mind.