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There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

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Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#101

Post by JohnFen »

bombcar wrote: post #95
datpiff wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army! Turn-over is much lower. A professional may buy a whole line of tools from a single brand but with the expectation that they may replace them all in several years. This allows some level of comparison and movement between brands as quality varies over time. The part-timer/prosumer is locked in for a…

It can vary company-by-company, but many contractors are their own little company and use the tool they need; a $250 battery is nothing if they need to keep working. They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy (literally give it back to Home Depot when there to get something else), since the time spent isn't worth it.

> They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy

I'm this way as an individual customer, to be honest. I ignore warranties entirely because they're rarely worth all of the hassle that comes with them.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#102

Post by crote »

JohnFen wrote: post #90
rektide wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-conv…

The USB connector is the problem here. For a tool like these, I'd certainly want one that's more rugged than USB-C. Those things are fragile.

It could potentially be fixed by overmolding the USB-C connector: keep the connector, but stick it in a little jacket to make it foolproof. A bit like etherCON[0]: compatible, but way more rugged. They actually already have variants for USB-A![1]

There is already a USB-C variant, but that one seems a bit lacking.[2]

[0]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/data/ethercon

[1]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/multimedia-conne...

[2]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/multimedia-conne...

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#103

Post by monkmartinez »

tchvil wrote: post #73
glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

As pointed in the article, battery packs aren't that expensive. When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7 10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack. Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.

No way it was close! I just did this on for a 6AH Makita. First of all, taking apart the pack... for science, the batteries were name brand but not the best and were under-rated capacity.

Second, I shopped around and found LG MH1 INR 18650 3200mAh HD 10A for under $5 per cell. So my 5S2P (18v 6AH+) battery with BMS and new case was less than $70 shipped with damn fine cells.

The cheapest knockoff amazon battery that works with Makita is about $50, but those are seriously sus in both cell type and BMS. Homedepot has the OG Makita 6ah at $200+.

The only thing you need contemplate for DIY is the quality of the BMS. Don't charge batteries when you are not paying some attention.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#104

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

maxerickson wrote: post #74
rektide wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-conv…

Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB? Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.

At my last job we designed a lot of wireless devices. One problem we saw frequently was that in high population-density areas, e.g., apartment buildings in NYC, Bluetooth was often useless because there was simply so much interference from so many devices in a small space.

Wired communication definitely still has its place.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#105

Post by JohnFen »

crote wrote: post #102
JohnFen wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USB connector is the problem here. For a tool like these, I'd certainly want one that's more rugged than USB-C. Those things are fragile.

It could potentially be fixed by overmolding the USB-C connector: keep the connector, but stick it in a little jacket to make it foolproof. A bit like etherCON[0]: compatible, but way more rugged. They actually already have variants for USB-A![1] There is already a USB-C variant, but that one seems a bit lacking.[2] [0]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/data/ethercon [1]: https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/product…

I thought we were talking about USB-C as the interface between the battery and the tool. If that's the case, the connector would be embedded in the battery so it mates with the receptacle when you clip the battery onto the tool. There wouldn't be something you can put a sleeve on (and that wouldn't be necessary as the case of the battery is, effectively, the ruggedized sleeve.)

I have an SBC that mates with an external hard drive in this way. You put the hard drive in an enclosure that clamps onto the base of the SBC and a USB-C connector mates when you do.

That's what needs to be more rugged. It's not just external side-to-side forces here, it's the actual mating and unmating of the connector that needs to be ruggedized. USB-C is too delicate for that, at least in my experience.

You want something that has big, beefy contacts that can handle being connected and disconnected a lot, by people who are not being anything close to careful when they're doing it.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#106

Post by lamontcg »

StueyGuyd wrote: post #78
glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for doubl…

> With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand?

I have a DeWalt drill that I bought some years ago. I literally have no idea if the drill performs well or not no matter what batteries would go best into it. My requirements are fairly low, I just occasionally need a drill.

The vast majority of consumers out there that buy a drill for their home don't care about all the performance issues that you like geeking out over. And they don't need to care.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#107

Post by westurner »

From "USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27295621 :

> What are the costs to add a USB PD module to an electronic device? https://hackaday.com/2021/04/21/easy-usb%E2%80%91c-power-for...

> - [ ] Create an industry standard interface for charging and using [power tool,] battery packs; and adapters

From "Zero energy ready homes are coming" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35065366 :

  # USB power specs (DC)
    7.5w = 1.5amp * 5volts  # USB
   15w   = 3a * 5v  # USB-C
  100w   = 5a * 20v # USB-C PD
  240w   = 5a * 48v # USB-C PD 3.1
Others could also send emails to power tool manufacturers about USB-C PD support and evolving the spec to support power tool battery packs.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#108

Post by willcipriano »

jfengel wrote: post #83

I was tickled the other day to discover that Makita also makes a coffee maker that uses their batteries. It's a nifty gimmick to get you to use Makita-branded products on the job site. https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/DCM501Z (They also offer a kettle and a cooler, and other things that are useful on a job site but not conventionally "tools".)

Down the same road Coleman makes a propane coffee maker.

https://www.amazon.com/Coleman-QuikPot-Propane-Coffee-Maker/...

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#109

Post by bjornasm »

bombcar wrote: post #42
throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #14

The tool costs $100. The battery costs $100. The tools only work with the one battery, the batteries need replacing, and you need more of them to use multiple tools at once. It is about money. Money from batteries, money from vendor lock in. This isn't cynicism, it's economics. These companies would probably lose at least half of their profit, maybe much more, if they gave up the battery. And there's more reasons. If…

I’ve never bought a battery. I assume someone somewhere does, but I have enough “free” ones that will last for a long time.

So you are saying that when you are going to buy a new tool you will stick to your brand - since you have lots of batteries you can buy the discounted tool that comes without one.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#110

Post by hgsgm »

StrangeATractor wrote: post #47
glasss wrote: post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious wo…

Why aren't ZYXNOO and BAJIP and all those Amazon brands selling cheap and modular replacements?
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