Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022) • Hacker News Board

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#101

Post by whstl » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 1:50 AM UTC

dmcq2 wrote: post #13

At a job I had they wanted me to install an instant messaging app on my compute! I refused point blank. I said they could email me and I'd look at he email every so often. If it was really important they could get up and walk to see me. If it wasn't important enough for others to walk then it definitely wasn't important enough to interrupt me. Before that I was at a place where they had tannoys. I moved the tannoys a…

"Instant messaging" doesn't have to be "instant". You can just close the program and open it every other hour, just like with email (which also trigger notifications). Or better yet: don't even install the chat app. Just use it in the browser and open as needed.

The expectation that you always have to be online is also unreasonable. But if you're still required to put out a show for an unreasonable employer, you can always set it to "Busy" and disable notifications. This also signals to people that you won't reply immediately.

Of course some co-workers will want to "chat" when you answer them, but this is where you must set limits and say you'll only have time for chat outside your busy hours. This is normally perfectly acceptable IME.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#102

Post by giantrobot » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 1:53 AM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #20

Sadly, the cost of context switching is well-known, and has been proven, over and over again, for decades. But managers don't care (and many co-workers also). A quick shufti at most modern open-plan offices, shows the contempt that managers have for developer context. They know better, and have made the conscious decision to go open, anyway. I remember visiting the Facebook/Instagram building, in NYC, and was aghast…

This killed me my last few years at Apple in the spaceship. Everything in the fucking building is a distraction and most of it is constantly in your line of sight at all times.

Even if I managed to angle my monitor right, put on headphones, and pull my hoodie up to reduce distractions some side conversation or impromptu stand up would inevitably distract me and pull me out of my flow. I tried to come in as late as practical in order to stay late so I could get work done for a few uninterrupted hours. I found myself going in a day on the weekend to actually get the previous week's work finished. Unfortunately management doesn't like people coming in "late" because they can't lord over them from their offices during the day and constantly interrupt them with meetings.

It was downright insulting that a $5b building intended for professionals didn't have real offices with fucking doors. At the upper management level the fact the company worked as well if not better with WFH policies must be incensing. It makes plain the insipid claims about "collaboration" in that stupid building. Collaboration happens when engineers want to share ideas, not because they're imprisoned in a glorified fish tank for eight hours a day.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#103

Post by TheDudeMan » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 2:24 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #97

asdff wrote: post #9

If I know I am going to have my day broken into sub 1hr chunks thanks to meetings and such, I pretty much write off the day entirely. It takes time to get into the flow state, some studies cite over 20 minutes, and once you are in it you want to stay in it for like four hours. No emails to follow up with, no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the perip…

> no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the periphery My teen jobs were in stores, restaurants, and manufacturing. In those contexts, everybody understands that when you're working, you're actually working. Even managers understand that even small discussions need to be fit neatly into the flow of the work, and actual meetings require careful planning…

> And sure, why don't you put me next to the salespeople making calls all day.

Dude, how about a trigger warning next time?

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#104

Post by wruza » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:05 AM UTC

Not that I like to be interrupted, but if it’s inevitable, here is my method. I’m using it when interruptions are planned, when a task is complex by itself, at refactorings and on bad/lazy days.

Log all your key thoughts, realizations, decisions and taken steps on paper. It shouldn’t be long or long-term clear, only clear to today’s you. Gibberish to a bystander. Text, bullets, arrows, acronyms, verbs, marks, anything that works. Lists, trees, graphs, outlines.

It’s your L2 cache. L1 is fast but short and prone to distraction. If you log everything into L2, then returning to the task becomes much easier, because the whole context is right there.

The downside is you have to spend time drawing. The unintuitive upside is that by writing you may make it clear to yourself what maybe wasn’t clear.

IDE may be good at where you were, but it doesn’t know what you thought.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#105

Post by philipswood » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:38 AM UTC

saghm wrote: post #100

earthling8118 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still missing the point. It isn't that you need to stay up all night, but rather the flow state. In college you typically have classes during the day so you aren't going to get it then. That doesn't make it a great thing but it also isn't exactly relevant to this conversation.

I understand the point they're making, but I'm not sure you understand mine though. If someone talking about weight loss suggested that people should just never eat breakfast to reduce the amount of eating they do in a given day, it would be relevant to offer a critique this may end up being counterproductive overall to the goal due to it just pushing the issue into another part of the day; this is basically the same…

I'm not criticizing your logical point, but your choice of example might be unfortunate.

Intermittent fasting seems to be a very effective strategy (for reasons unrelated to your point).

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#106

Post by tootie » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:41 AM UTC

omnicognate wrote: post #23

I actively like being distracted when I'm programming. I tend to approach a problem from lots of different directions, each time fizzling out, hitting a block or having some sort of mental reset, until something unconsciously clicks and an overall structure, understanding or solution emerges. Continually leaving and returning to the problem is a part of that process, so I tend to find someone walking up with a questi…

Same. If I stare at the same issue for more than 15 minutes I'm probably going in loops and not recognizing it. Get up, walk around, go outside even. Answer will frequently present itself the minute I get back into it.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#107

Post by askiiart » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:44 AM UTC

wruza wrote: post #104

Not that I like to be interrupted, but if it’s inevitable, here is my method. I’m using it when interruptions are planned, when a task is complex by itself, at refactorings and on bad/lazy days. Log all your key thoughts, realizations, decisions and taken steps on paper. It shouldn’t be long or long-term clear, only clear to today’s you. Gibberish to a bystander. Text, bullets, arrows, acronyms, verbs, marks, anythin…

> It's your L2 cache.

Stuff like this is why I love Hacker News. Rather than making up abstract, weird analogies between a thing, and another very abstract thing I find even more difficult to understand, we can make analogies to technical terms which most people here understand [citation needed], and which anyone who doesn't can easily look up.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#108

Post by babyshake » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #97

asdff wrote: post #9

If I know I am going to have my day broken into sub 1hr chunks thanks to meetings and such, I pretty much write off the day entirely. It takes time to get into the flow state, some studies cite over 20 minutes, and once you are in it you want to stay in it for like four hours. No emails to follow up with, no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the perip…

> no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the periphery My teen jobs were in stores, restaurants, and manufacturing. In those contexts, everybody understands that when you're working, you're actually working. Even managers understand that even small discussions need to be fit neatly into the flow of the work, and actual meetings require careful planning…

> And sure, why don't you put me next to the salespeople making calls all day.

Or better yet, put me next to the salespeople that instead of making calls all day are just goofing off.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#109

Post by brailsafe » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:54 AM UTC

TheDudeMan wrote: post #103

wpietri wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the periphery My teen jobs were in stores, restaurants, and manufacturing. In those contexts, everybody understands that when you're working, you're actually working. Even managers understand that even small discussions need to be fit neatly into the flow of the work, and actual meetings require careful planning…

> And sure, why don't you put me next to the salespeople making calls all day. Dude, how about a trigger warning next time?

Ya for real this made me go blind for a few seconds

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#110

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 3:57 AM UTC

saghm wrote: post #100

earthling8118 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still missing the point. It isn't that you need to stay up all night, but rather the flow state. In college you typically have classes during the day so you aren't going to get it then. That doesn't make it a great thing but it also isn't exactly relevant to this conversation.

I understand the point they're making, but I'm not sure you understand mine though. If someone talking about weight loss suggested that people should just never eat breakfast to reduce the amount of eating they do in a given day, it would be relevant to offer a critique this may end up being counterproductive overall to the goal due to it just pushing the issue into another part of the day; this is basically the same…

Hum... Isn't that intermittent fasting?