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Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

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Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#101

Post by usrbinbash »

Aloha wrote: post #84
usrbinbash wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Woah woah woah, don't put that evil on us in the USA, that stone madness is all British. > A US hundredweight is 100 lbs. The fact that there are more than one sort of imperial measurements, and that they are different , makes matters worse, rather than better. The metric system works the same, everywhere, in all countries, and in all languages. The only thing that changed since its inception, was switching from de…

US Customary Units ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units ) is not the same as Imperial ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units ) For what its worth, our system was standardized in 1832, and has been bound to SI equivalents since 1895. For a broader comparison of the differences - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and...

> and has been bound to SI equivalents since 1895.

But then why not just switch to using them directly? Having arbitrary units of measurement, and then going on to define them in SI units anway, is like dividing the day into 17.5 "Foobars", each of which consists of 4200 "Baz", and then defining that 1 Baz == 1.1755102040816328 seconds.

If there was some tangible advantage to doing that, I wouldn't say anything, but there isn't. Sure, 1 inch is roughly something-with-thumb-idk, only it isn't really, because everyone has different fingers, feet, arms, etc., so the entire "advantage" of having a real world comparison is out the window anyway.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#102

Post by themaninthedark »

mrguyorama wrote: post #90
runarb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some gif showing the effect: https://www.nrk.no/nordland/mdg-mener-vindturbin-i-vindpark-... The article is in Norwegian, but look at the pictures. It must be stressful to have all those read warning lights blinking all night.

>It must be stressful to have all those read warning lights blinking all night. Why?

Because what was once a dark hill side is now lit up every 5 seconds by bright flashes.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#103

Post by johnwalkr »

mulmen wrote: post #94
usrbinbash wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. The metric system is: Everything is orders of magnitude, powers of ten, throughout all the measurements. Consequently, everything measured by base units of distance and mass follows the same rules: A Watt is 1 Joule per second, which is 1 Newt…

> It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. It's important to note that the US does not and has never used the "Imperial System" which didn't even exist before 1826 which is post-revolutionary war. US Customary units evolved around the same time as the Metric system and used names from the Dutch and English systems for historical reasons. The…

Machinists have no problem working with designs in SI units on an inch-based machine. Lots of American companies use metric in designs and machine shops have to deal with it, although shops are moving to metric more and more. When they do this they keep and use their old machines with no problem although it’s an annoyance. Conversely metric machine shops can make inch-sized parts with no problems. Lots of material stock is inch-sized in the US, so even when you design in metric you have to consider this. But over time there is more metric stock available in the US, and for things like precision shafts there’s no cost difference anymore.

Regardless of everyday usage, in mechanical engineering/metalworking, the switch to metric has already been happening slowly since the 70s. Old machines and designs can stay in inches but most industries are already moving to metric unless there’s a compelling reason not to. You can see in Canada what things have stayed in inches because of regulations and material availability. House framing and steel weldments come to mind.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#104

Post by mulmen »

usrbinbash wrote: post #99
mulmen wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. It's important to note that the US does not and has never used the "Imperial System" which didn't even exist before 1826 which is post-revolutionary war. US Customary units evolved around the same time as the Metric system and used names from the Dutch and English systems for historical reasons. The…

> The motivation being global compatibility, not internal consistency. All the more reason to officially switch to metric. Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units, while the rest of the world uses the metric system. > The US was an original signatory of the treaty of the Meter. So? If I have a gymcard and don't go to the gym, it's not doing me any…

> Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units

This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system, which has been based on the metric system since 1893.

> If I have to figure out hundredweights per acre, given that X inches of rain fell, I'm gonna need a calculator, a conversion table, and social context to know which kind of "hundredweight" I'm supposed to use.

Nobody is doing this.

> and social context to know which kind of "hundredweight" I'm supposed to use.

Since as you say everyone else uses the Metric system it should be pretty easy to figure out. As an American I have never even heard of a hundredweight, not sure why you are so fixated on this unit.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#105

Post by mulmen »

usrbinbash wrote: post #101
Aloha wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US Customary Units ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units ) is not the same as Imperial ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_units ) For what its worth, our system was standardized in 1832, and has been bound to SI equivalents since 1895. For a broader comparison of the differences - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and...

> and has been bound to SI equivalents since 1895. But then why not just switch to using them directly? Having arbitrary units of measurement, and then going on to define them in SI units anway, is like dividing the day into 17.5 "Foobars", each of which consists of 4200 "Baz", and then defining that 1 Baz == 1.1755102040816328 seconds. If there was some tangible advantage to doing that, I wouldn't say anything, but…

> But then why not just switch to using them directly?

Where it matters we already did. There's really nothing to see here.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#106

Post by usrbinbash »

mulmen wrote: post #104
usrbinbash wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The motivation being global compatibility, not internal consistency. All the more reason to officially switch to metric. Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units, while the rest of the world uses the metric system. > The US was an original signatory of the treaty of the Meter. So? If I have a gymcard and don't go to the gym, it's not doing me any…

> Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system, which has been based on the metric system since 1893. > If I have to figure out hundredweights per acre, given that X inches of rain fell, I'm gonna need a calculator, a conversion table, and social context to know…

> This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system

So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better?

> Nobody is doing this.

Yes, people are doing such calculations all the time. How many concrete transports will a construction company need to make a foundation, if the depth is 2.2 m², the size is 97.2 m² and the specific weigth is 2.5 tons per m³?

How much rain did fall on Hamburg in 2022 given a city size in square kilometers, and an average fall of cm/day.

What kind of energy output can a solar farm provide given a conversion rate, panel efficiency, panel angle, and land size? Easy to do if all is in SI.

> As an American I have never even heard of a hundredweight

It's an official unit of the us customary system:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredweight

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#107

Post by Aloha »

usrbinbash wrote: post #100
Aloha wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of layers of arbitrary dont bother me very much. We've metrified our industry (gradually over 50 or so years), dealing the the government is metric, etc. I think we've adopted the metric system in the most important places - I dont think our competitiveness is harmed or helped if I have to buy meat by the KG at the grocery, or the weather forecast comes in celsius or not.

Then why not just officially ditch what is, at this point, a quirky anachronism at best, and a potentially really expensive source of mistakes [1] at worst? [1]: https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metr...

Largely, the because the costs to change what remains, isnt worth the savings we'd get from doing it. Moreover the people who would have to bear those costs, are often the people in business least able to do so.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#108

Post by Aloha »

usrbinbash wrote: post #106
mulmen wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system, which has been based on the metric system since 1893. > If I have to figure out hundredweights per acre, given that X inches of rain fell, I'm gonna need a calculator, a conversion table, and social context to know…

> This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better? > Nobody is doing this. Yes, people are doing such calculations all the time. How many concrete transpor…

Yes hundredweight is an official measurement, but it's not a widely used one (I think it might be used in the sale of nails only?) - which is the parents point. We'd just calculate it in pounds or fractional tons.

You act as if these calculations are simply impossible in customary units, they're not and we do them all the time.

To go on from this, we've converted everything that meaningfully effects our external competitiveness, as I said in a parallel comment I dont think our competitiveness would be helped or harmed if meat was sold in kilograms vs lbs or if we have temperature on the weather forecast in Celsius.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#109

Post by mulmen »

usrbinbash wrote: post #106
mulmen wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because as of right now, only 3 countries in the world (US, Liberia and Myanmar) officially use imperial units This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system, which has been based on the metric system since 1893. > If I have to figure out hundredweights per acre, given that X inches of rain fell, I'm gonna need a calculator, a conversion table, and social context to know…

> This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better? > Nobody is doing this. Yes, people are doing such calculations all the time. How many concrete transpor…

> So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better?

For the same reason the metric (literally international standard) system was created. There were many similar systems in use. US Customary was a standard system for the whole country. The problem being solved was different standards for the units. US Customary solves that problem. Only the standard definition of the unit changed. This has been done within the metric system as well, even very recently.

> > Nobody is doing this.

> Yes, people are doing such calculations all the time.

What I mean is that specific conversion with hundredweights.

I’m unclear why anyone would do any of your example calculations in their head. They’re all so important that it would be done precisely on paper or electronically. All a worker pouring a foundation meeds to know is the desired dimensions. All the truck driver needs to know is the quantity ordered. Nobody is actually converting precise quantities of concrete or solar panels in their heads.

Re: Bell Labs gave up its roof to patch the Statue of Liberty

#110

Post by Aloha »

mulmen wrote: post #109
usrbinbash wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not true. The US has never used the Imperial system, we use the US Customary system So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better? > Nobody is doing this. Yes, people are doing such calculations all the time. How many concrete transpor…

> So how is using yet another different system defining arbitrary measurements that cannot be easily converted, do not directly correspond with the radix 10 numerical system, and are also not widely used make things better? For the same reason the metric (literally international standard ) system was created. There were many similar systems in use. US Customary was a standard system for the whole country. The problem…

Not to mention, you can do those calculations in your head if you're familiar enough with the subject matter, concrete guys do it all the time.
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