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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#101

Post by waihtis »

tfourb wrote: post #100
waihtis wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For us in FIN, the bulk majority that will get hit worst are low-income rural households that aren't nearly worth 200,000k. In fact it will probably result in a lot of abandoned homes as it isn't worth investing 20k euros to renovate a 60-80k house, not that anyone is lending that money to these homes anyway. You have perfectly demonstrated how idiotic these blanket EU-level policies are as they take no consideration…

As I wrote above, the proposed (!) regulation would be based on the national housing stock. So if you are in Finnland, the energy efficiency of your house would be compared to other finish houses, not a house in Germany. Which is the definition of "considering local situations". Also, a quick check reveals that only about 14% of the Finish population lives in rural areas [1]. Even if every single one of those persons…

It doesn't matter if the energy efficiency rating is based on local standards when the costs aren't. Again, there is absolutely no sense blowing 20-30k on energy renovating a house that is worth 80k.

If you don't think binding 5% of the entire country's budget for 10 years into upgrading old houses is an manic proposition I think we can safely agree there isn't a way for us to see this from the same angle and we can agree to disagree on this topic.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#102

Post by 28304283409234 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39
bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

No, it sounds arrogant and privileged to make it sound as if only farmers have worked hard for generations. We all have.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#103

Post by cornholio »

mtts wrote: post #90
em-bee wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can the excess heat of the datacenter be used to heat up the greenhouses?

This was the promise originally but it turned out to be impossible. As it turns out, data center waste water is nowhere near warm enough to use for heating.

It would work if you would put the server directly into the greenhouses, 25°C is cool enough for servers and warm enough for plants. But the expense of having moisture, bug and dirt resistant servers and technicians would far outweigh the energy efficiency.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#104

Post by tfourb »

waihtis wrote: post #101
tfourb wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I wrote above, the proposed (!) regulation would be based on the national housing stock. So if you are in Finnland, the energy efficiency of your house would be compared to other finish houses, not a house in Germany. Which is the definition of "considering local situations". Also, a quick check reveals that only about 14% of the Finish population lives in rural areas [1]. Even if every single one of those persons…

It doesn't matter if the energy efficiency rating is based on local standards when the costs aren't. Again, there is absolutely no sense blowing 20-30k on energy renovating a house that is worth 80k. If you don't think binding 5% of the entire country's budget for 10 years into upgrading old houses is an manic proposition I think we can safely agree there isn't a way for us to see this from the same angle and we can…

Spending 5% of the government budget for ten years on measures that reduce energy consumption by 20-30% for a third of the housing stock forever is a bargain. The 20-30k figure was based on my experience with German houses, I have no idea how much it would cost for the typical old finish house to come up to standard. Based on the very few rural finish houses I've seen I would guess it is less, because they would probably tend to be smaller, but that is pure speculation.

Also, of course it is worth investing 20k over 10 years into a 80k house in many circumstances. Why wouldn't it be? Yes, some people won't be able to afford this out of pocket (though I maintain that this group is smaller than you'd think). But again, the government could (and should) support this group, making it financially feasible.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#105

Post by mtts »

cornholio wrote: post #103
mtts wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the promise originally but it turned out to be impossible. As it turns out, data center waste water is nowhere near warm enough to use for heating.

It would work if you would put the server directly into the greenhouses, 25°C is cool enough for servers and warm enough for plants. But the expense of having moisture, bug and dirt resistant servers and technicians would far outweigh the energy efficiency.

Hahaha - never thought of it that way. Given how dirt free a lot of modern greenhouse agriculture is, it could conceivably be done.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#106

Post by em-bee »

cornholio wrote: post #103
mtts wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the promise originally but it turned out to be impossible. As it turns out, data center waste water is nowhere near warm enough to use for heating.

It would work if you would put the server directly into the greenhouses, 25°C is cool enough for servers and warm enough for plants. But the expense of having moisture, bug and dirt resistant servers and technicians would far outweigh the energy efficiency.

if that works, why doesn't it work to put them next to each other and pump the warm air from the server into the greenhouse? would that already have to much loss?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#107

Post by the_third_wave »

nec4b wrote: post #84
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Where and how do you get your food?

From the restaurant and the supermarket of course? What does "arable land" and "fertile soil" have to do with my vegaburger? It comes neatly wrapped in vacuum-sealed plastic from a factory which from the outside is nearly indiscernible from one of those data centres. As long as I can get my factory-made food from building A while streaming a video of me unwrapping the stuff to the data centre in building B I'm fine so you should be as well.

For those who have read Asterix there is this scene in 'The Great Crossing' [1] where the fish monger - Kostunrix in the Dutch version, Unhygienix in the UK, Epidemix in the US - asks what the sea has to do with his fish since he gets it 'fresh from Lutetia' (Paris).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_and_the_Great_Crossing

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#108

Post by the_third_wave »

atq2119 wrote: post #76
tfourb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: - You own an asset worth 200,000-300,000 Euros - The required investment, which can be spread over up to ten years, is 20,000-30,000 Euros - You would have to make parts of this investment anyway, because your windows are leaky and your radiators are breaking - You will recoup the costs over 5-10 years because you use less energy - 25-50% of this investment will be covered by subsidies, the…

Not to mention that 200k-300k is the absolute low end for a house. Around here you're lucky to get something for 5 times that.

There is more than just whatever urbanised area you happen to live which gave you this rather myopic view. Even in the Netherlands - where housing is expensive - €300K will give you plenty of choice [1]. In the south of Sweden it will buy you a largish villa while in the north it buys you a large farm.

[1] https://localfocus2.appspot.com/593e6715568f0 (click on municipality for an overview of prices)

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#109

Post by paulus_magnus2 »

In return for costing EU members $10 billion in lost corporate tax a year, the Netherlands collects just $2.2 billion in additional corporate tax a year. For every $1 dollar the Netherlands collected from the shifted profits of US corporations, the EU as a whole lost nearly $4 in corporate tax from the corporations. [1]

[1] https://taxjustice.net/press/revealed-netherlands-blocking-e...

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