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B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

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101–110 of 148 posts

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#101
I think the article and most of the commentators are missing a real problem. The real problem is that there is an underlying complexity, which has no simple solution - collaboration of teams/groups of people with different expertise and even different interests is a universally unsolved problem. When a company passes the "startup" stage and gets real customers, it isn't a startup anymore. It has more tasks to handle and needs more people to work, people with different expertise. There are sales, operations, developers (with multiple expertise), lawyers, coordinators (of all kinds). Innovation is not a self-evident target, at some point startup needs to cash innovation. There are frameworks which attempted to address that complexity, for example scrum or more flexible superset "agile manifesto" or even waterfall. They all may work or fail, but there is no guarantee, no recipe.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#102

This is a poorly written article that is all over the place. It’s evident the author had a horrible experience with a PM. Their description of a PM is a description of a PM who’s doing their job poorly. Qualitative research at any company is critical and poor qual research (interviewing the wrong people, asking the wrong types of questions, etc) will yield poor insights as is the case here. Any PM working at a B2B st…

This piece would be better titled "Startups stop innovating when they have poor leadership", and reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of the PM role and the nature of the problems the author is witnessing.

One of the most important aspects of the PM's role is not to take a list of feature requests, and not to give customers what they directly want/ask for, but to understand their problem space deeply, and to use that understanding to guide the dev team to the right solution. This still leaves power in the hands of the dev team to innovate, but ensures that innovation is directionally correct. If you don't have a dedicated PM, someone still needs to do the role, and if the dev team is doing this better than the PM, they needs a new PM - maybe whoever is doing this successfully from the dev team (this was my path into the PM role as a lifelong dev).

Forgetting to focus on the right things quickly leads to an XY Problem [0], and in my experience over the past ~20 years building software, almost every customer falls into this trap, and engineers are just as susceptible to this problem as the person doing the PM role.

I some have empathy for the author as someone who has experienced working with a bad PM, but it would be easy to write a response to this post that mirrors the author's arguments while describing a poorly executing dev team and the resulting outcomes of that.

The failure modes of dev team without product thinking (whether that thinking comes from someone on the team, or from a dedicated PM) are just as severe if not worse as the failure modes of a poorly run PM org. I've seen teams spend 6+ months "innovating", only to find they did not really understand the customer problem, and what they built was never used.

The other thing worth noting here is that "innovation" is not necessarily a good primary measurement when thinking about progress building B2B products - especially enterprise products. Innovation is often directly at odds with the needs of the business buying the tool. They're running a business on this product, and they value stability and "does this thing solve my problem" far more than innovation for innovation's sake. If innovation is required to solve a new problem or to improve the stability of the business, so be it, but running a business is often at odds with dev team's willingness (even desire) to move fast/break things.

My advice to the author would be to spend some time seeking out information about good product managers. Establish a working understanding of what the role looks like when executed well. Engineering can often guide the direction of a PM org, and identifying poorly performing PMs is as important as identifying poorly performing engineers. But starting from the position presented in this article is just a complete non-starter for any such progress. It shuts down the conversation before it even starts, because it demonstrates a painfully glaring lack of understanding of what the problem really is.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the myriad of factors that play into product decisions once the company starts to grow. Factors that no engineering team wants to deal with - pricing, packaging, putting XYZ on hold for a release to focus on ABC because there's a product-wide priority, etc.

(Disclaimer: I switched from dev to PM late in my career because the team needed a technical PM, but the majority of my professional experience is working as a dev).

- [0] https://xyproblem.info/

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#103

As an engineering leader, I tend to agree that giving Product Managers too much power causes lots of problems. A big one is retaining good engineers. My experience of bad PMs is that they live in the Y side of the XY problem space[0] and believe they should have total say over how the engineers and designers spend every minute of their time. Thankfully my company has a great CPO and we have agreed to avoid this type…

"PMs work for the engineering teams" made me cringe. This statement is no different than what the article is preaching, just another flavor. PMs and Engineering should work together. PMs #1 role and why they should even have a job is bringing customer clarity and urgency. Being a tech-led/product-led organization is just another version of sales-led organization. The ultimate balance is being customer-led which many companies/teams don't fully understand. But I fully agree with the "product CEO take" - as a PM I hate that framing.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#104
post #77
post #60

Most good software out there were started by engineers and not by product managers and engineer only products are generally great and liked by people. Linux and the ecosystem is one example. I am not sure what really happens after Product Managers come in that the product takes a dive. I have seen this repeat almost everywhere. You start with a small team of engineers and have a product that people love, now you need…

> Lawyers are lead by Senior lawyers You could argue that Lawyers are lead by their clients in the same way that Engineers are led by their end users / PMs. The difference is that in the Doctor & Lawyer examples your end-user is very obvious because it is the person in-front of you. With Engineering you are not usually in constant contact with your end users, hence the PM role.

It’s not quite so obvious in medicine. The patient often isn’t the one paying the bill, so the insurance company or government is the actual customer. In that regards, it’s more like a B2B transaction.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#105

As an engineering leader, I tend to agree that giving Product Managers too much power causes lots of problems. A big one is retaining good engineers. My experience of bad PMs is that they live in the Y side of the XY problem space[0] and believe they should have total say over how the engineers and designers spend every minute of their time. Thankfully my company has a great CPO and we have agreed to avoid this type…

> At a truly tech lead organization, PMs work for the engineering teams, not the other way around.

This reminds me of a company I worked at that had a lot of rhetoric going around inverting the power relationship between teams and their managers.

Basically the "project manager" role was renamed into "project advisor", the department manager to departmental advisor and so forth, carrying the connotation that a subordinate might just choose to ignore "advice" from above.

In reality, the whole thing was a charade to bullshit people into believing they had more power than they actually had. If someone decided to disagree on any given piece of "advice", they would usually find themselves in a call with the line manager one level up and be told that they were perfectly on track for not getting any salary increase this cycle and no more promotions ever again, because of the arrogance, ignorance, and a dozen other negative personality traits, attributable to anyone who won't follow "advice".

This was soo much worse than just having "a boss". If you have a boss, you might just think to yourself "The boss is full of shit, but I'll have to implement it anyway, because that's just how it goes. He has power, I don't." But now there is this whole gaslighting element where you start to question your own reality: "Why does it seem to me right now that the boss is full of shit? Is that because I'm too arrogant to take advice? Is it because I'm too dumb to fully grasp the greater wisdom of his advice?"

Once you create a caste such as the "product managerial" caste, it just doesn't matter what you call them, and how you define their role on paper. They are going to be in power.

Because there has to be some reason why you chose to distinguish them from the engineers. The article itself seems to reflect some of the bogus beliefs that motivate why engineers can't be their own product managers: Like they are so socially inept that they can't coordinate with relevant stakeholders, and they are so far removed from the customer that they have no way of figuring out by themselves what to build. There also has to be a reason why you chose to distinguish them from the sales people: Like salespeople will just recklessly say "yes" to any and all customer demands with no idea of the cost of actually building stuff.

So what's the solution, if you think you have these problems? Apparently, to create a new caste of people. Let's call them "product managers". And because we are calling them something different, those prejudices won't have to apply to them. They won't be socially inept and removed from the customer, because we're not calling them engineers. And they won't be reckless because we're not calling them salespeople.

If you hold those beliefs, they are going to be in charge, won't they? Because you've just chosen to think of everyone else in this negative way, and put those project managers up on a pedestal. You've chosen a whole caste of people whose very reason for being is predicated on those negative beliefs about these other groups. And they'll work hard to perpetuate those beliefs, possibly even sabotage the company to make them stay true. They don't even have to be evil to act this way, just human, because is psychologically natural. Hire a full time event manager, and you'll have someone who will constantly be politicking the company into doing events, because, otherwise, why are they here? Hire full time product managers, and you'll have someone who will constantly be politicking the company into not letting engineers and sales people make "product" decisions.

The better thing to do is to go back to the original problems and try to solve them: Like, give engineers blocks of time off from coding duty, so they have time to be more proactively communicating with stakeholders. Send them along with a sales person every now and then so they get to talk to customers regularly. Give them time off so they can be trained in usability and design. Let sales people follow along with engineering status updates when you're building a feature that they promised to a customer. So they come to appreciate just how much work it is to actually build stuff. ...now there's no longer a need to have product managers, and you've actually solved problems that were going to cause trouble anyway, regardless of whether you have product managers or not.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#106
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this whole article the word "problem" is only written once, and it's in the line "the problem with product managers is". Given you don't understand that the core pillar of the product manager role is to be the owner of the problem space, I'm not sure how qualified you are to comment on how valuable our role is or isn't. Discovery isn't about decided what does or doesn't get built, it's about discovering what the r…

> A lot of PM's end up overreaching because they're just tired of there being a leadership vacuum and nobody willing to fill it. This kind of apologizing for horrific behavior undermines what I thought were otherwise strong points.

[deleted]

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#107
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this whole article the word "problem" is only written once, and it's in the line "the problem with product managers is". Given you don't understand that the core pillar of the product manager role is to be the owner of the problem space, I'm not sure how qualified you are to comment on how valuable our role is or isn't. Discovery isn't about decided what does or doesn't get built, it's about discovering what the r…

Sorry if you took it personally or you think this is a rant. This is clearly not the case, I can repeat it, PM have a lot of value, but there is one specific area that we shouldn't give them control over. It doesnt mean they are bad PM or good PM, innovation requires just fundamentally opposed skills to the standard product management ones that we see in books.

Going by this article and the rest of your writings it's hard for me to think that this 'one specific area that we shouldn't give them control over' isn't really 'whatever area polote happens to be in right now.'

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#108
I've seen PMs "scope creep" themselves to boost their CVs for when they leave and go somewhere else. These PMs suck. They are the type to lead meetings

I was a PM for 4 years in a startup. I helped the engineers avoid (most) meetings, I was obsessed with our customers and their pain points - and spoke with them frequently; as well hyper-obsessed with the competition and where we could improve. I took suggestions from users about what features to build next, and we built a few, and ignored others. I wouldn't bother my engineers unless management (who had a technical background) OK'd the feature after discussion and debate. I probably spent 2-3x the amount of time with my customers than my engineers. Sometimes as the PM the only interaction with my engineers was to bring them coffee in the morning while they cranked out code.

Seems there aren't many PMs like the role I played in my team. In a B2B or B2C startup, a good PM can provide structure, cover for the engineers, and a consistent look into how the product is being used, why it's used versus your competition, and what features users want going forward. A PM doing the right things is more of a design and customer support hybrid role than anything else.

That said, I don't understand why it's a bad thing to "stop innovating". If you have an innovative product that is clearly a hit with customers or users, you shouldn't aim to continually innovate past that in the short-term. You should be eliminating technical debt and making sure your core product's experience just fucking works 100% of the time. A good PM can help with that too, by putting management's ideas onto the backburner and saying "we have to solidify our product first" instead of jumping from one product to another.

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#109
Product Management is often a role where a lot of strategic business decisions and operational product decisions collide. A product needs to be innovative and relevant for a market but even with our tools today everything built for the future is a bet, so it is risky. Most PMs are not C-Level, so they are not allowed to take that kind of risk. So they manage a small box of possible pathways with low risk and low gain. So as soon as you shift all strategic decisions (a product owner in a software company is not far from a business owner) to the PM roles you limited the future development of your business to this small box.

Is that the fault of a PM?

Re: B2B startups stop innovating the day you give power to product managers

#110

As an engineering leader, I tend to agree that giving Product Managers too much power causes lots of problems. A big one is retaining good engineers. My experience of bad PMs is that they live in the Y side of the XY problem space[0] and believe they should have total say over how the engineers and designers spend every minute of their time. Thankfully my company has a great CPO and we have agreed to avoid this type…

> At a truly tech lead organization, PMs work for the engineering teams, not the other way around.

Every company should be customer led. Not in the sense they tell you exactly what to build, but understanding the customers problem and then coming up with solutions. In small companies it is much easier to align everyone with the customer. When we were a small company I would send engineers to sales/industry conferences, and it was great to see their eyes open and suddenly understand all the 'odd' requests coming from sales.

This becomes harder in a large company, so the customer has to be proxied somehow. PMs and sales are the common customer proxy. But, if the engineers are being asked to do something and they don't see the value, that is absolutely a failure of communication from PMs and sales. I've also seen the other side where the engineers fight anything that doesn't fit in their idea of the product, regardless of customer or business demands. Both are frustrating.

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