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Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

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Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#101

Post by Yaggo »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #67
chinathrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am currently getting rid of the car and going back to ICE because my whole experience was a painful joke. Can you elaborate?

Charging - Expensive and epic waste of time. Ionity leading the way with 0.79EUR/kWh and still you are there for 40 minutes and that's charger which can give me 150kW on start of charging. Slower chargers, like stupid 50kW? Yeah, 2 hours charging and they are wide and far. 20kW and weaker chargers? You are playing lottery with compatibility buddy. Yes it is there, yes it is on, but it does not like your car. What's t…

I think your experience reflects more your choise of car than EVs as technology. I have been driving Tesla happily for 3.5 years. I regularly make long distance trips to remote areas of Finland. No problems whatsoever. I pay 25 snt/kWh for on-the-road charging with Elli membership, about 12 snt at home.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#102

Post by mschuster91 »

nixass wrote: post #91
Vvector wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't charge at home at least 90% of the time, the EV loses most of the benefits. This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure improves.

> This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure improves. Yeah.. no. Especially not in old big towns around Europe where hundreds of thousands (even millions) of people live without underground garage and there's literally no place to install street side chargers on every corner.

I'm living in the center of Munich, and they've built out a lot of curb-side chargers over the last years here.

My personal hope is that advances in technology and grid upgrades will eventually lead to every single lamp post being a charge socket - a lot of the cars here belong to residents and stay parked for days, so they can get away with 3.6 kW charging just fine.

In the end, however, the solution likely will be a massive expansion of public transport, to a point where almost no one but people with disabilities and tradespeople will have their own cars.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#103

Post by speby »

losvedir wrote: post #19

I had a Toyota. It was a great car, and a real testament to the engineering prowess Toyoda established. I see very clear, very interesting Innovator's Dilemma vibes, though, in how widely they've missed the boat on EVs. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Toyota lose its dominance in the coming decade. It's sad, since the Prius was such a gamechanger. Maybe the passing of the torch here will let them start to catch up.

It's possible, yes. Empires rise. Empires fall. Toyota will adapt and 'missed the boat' implies that that's it; they're done. They're absolutely not done. They were also miles ahead of others when they introduced the Prius in the 90s. It's not as if they haven't been engineering and mass-producing electric powertrains for a long time. One strong reason they have not missed the boat? No one yet producing an EV right now even comes within arms-reach of Toyota's quality. People forget that it is, in fact, Toyota's legendary quality+reliability+value that makes it a brand people adore and come back to again, and again, and again. When they make an EV (and they will, eventually) that it is as good as the quality Toyota has built its foundation on, they will absolutely CRUSH it.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#104

Post by b34r »

rr808 wrote: post #31

Lots of people saying Toyota missed the boat on EVs. I'm not convinced the technology, infrastructure or battery supply is ready for true mass production of EVs. Toyota makes 10 million cars a year, they'll be selling good EVs soon enough to put Tesla to shame.

There are so many nuanced things that go into making a great EV: advanced software with OTA updates, highly efficient electric motors, material science breakthroughs in battery tech and other components. Toyota can get there in time but there’s so many things to do and they’re facing increasingly rough headwinds the longer they wait to properly electrify.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#105

Post by TheLoafOfBread »

Yaggo wrote: post #101
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging - Expensive and epic waste of time. Ionity leading the way with 0.79EUR/kWh and still you are there for 40 minutes and that's charger which can give me 150kW on start of charging. Slower chargers, like stupid 50kW? Yeah, 2 hours charging and they are wide and far. 20kW and weaker chargers? You are playing lottery with compatibility buddy. Yes it is there, yes it is on, but it does not like your car. What's t…

I think your experience reflects more your choise of car than EVs as technology. I have been driving Tesla happily for 3.5 years. I regularly make long distance trips to remote areas of Finland. No problems whatsoever. I pay 25 snt/kWh for on-the-road charging with Elli membership, about 12 snt at home.

The moment when you will get off the supercharger network with your tesla you are in the same crap as the rest of the BEV owners.

>on-the-road charging with Elli membership

Why should I buy some stupid membership so I can pay monthly fee + charging fee? I am not buying memberships for taking gas either.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#106

Post by lotsofpulp »

pfdietz wrote: post #82

We've bought Toyotas for years. All our family cars are Toyotas. I don't plan to buy another one, unless they can make a good EV.

Hah, I am waiting for Toyota to make a well reviewed EV to buy one. Otherwise, I am fine with their ICE/hybrid options.

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#107

Post by Gordonjcp »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #83
oblio wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if Deming ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Japan ) contributed to the Toyota Way? A lot of the Toyota Way seems inspired by his teachings.

I believe so. He is almost revered, in Japan. I'm told he was laughed out of the US, which is why he set up shop in Japan.

Now you imagine, how good do your ideas have to be an American coming to Japan just after World War II, and all the industry leaders of somewhere that was famously insular go "yeah, actually, this is good, this is what we should do, let's get this guy to meet everyone"?

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#108

Post by [deleted] »

mschuster91 wrote: post #102
nixass wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This will slowly change as more EVs are sold and the charging infrastructure improves. Yeah.. no. Especially not in old big towns around Europe where hundreds of thousands (even millions) of people live without underground garage and there's literally no place to install street side chargers on every corner.

I'm living in the center of Munich, and they've built out a lot of curb-side chargers over the last years here. My personal hope is that advances in technology and grid upgrades will eventually lead to every single lamp post being a charge socket - a lot of the cars here belong to residents and stay parked for days, so they can get away with 3.6 kW charging just fine. In the end, however, the solution likely will be…

[deleted]

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#109

Post by Forgeties79 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

> establishing a culture of quality control that helped Toyota evolve into a world-leading automaker. A lot of the JIT stuff that is so common, these days, was revolutionary, when he introduced it. I'm told that many agile techniques also had their genesis in his work.

I am curious how many people are rethinking how aggressively to set up a JIT system in the wake of COVID and the supply chain issues, given it clearly cost many companies an astronomical amount of money in the end. Obviously you shouldn't build your entire company around rare, worst case scenarios, but there should probably be some consideration budgeted in for them IMO and it seems few companies were ready for rainy days.

A very very tiny (maybe not even applicable) example is how I always keep a camera or two when I buy new ones and don't sell them all off. You never know when your workhorse is going to breakdown. Just something I'm mulling over I guess!

Re: Shoichiro Toyoda, who turned Toyota into global automaker, has died

#110

Post by cmh89 »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #90
tpm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However the whole EU market can't return to ICEs because of fleet emission limits, which are now 95g CO2/km and from 2025 will be 15% lower, with other changes too. So my guess is, people who can afford it (including charging infra) will have EVs which will get better and more expensive and the rest will not buy new cars. Maybe the market will shift to smaller forms of mobility, we'll see.

I am coming from an Eastern Block. It was quite common during communism to drive 20-30 years old cars. I think that Eastern Europe will teach the western part how to properly stagnate.

Cars should last more than 20 years. It's only recently with planned obsolescence that the manufacturers have gotten that number down.
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