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We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

aljazeera.com

101–110 of 209 posts

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#101
post #81

Greening and green-washing are causing a lot of harm. Good on Al Jazeera publishing this article and Kolinjivadi for writing it. More Western publications need to follow suit!

This al jazeera article seems to a repost of a guardian/Zeit investigation: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/18/revealed... https://www.zeit.de/2023/04/co2-zertifikate-betrug-emissions... I guess its true that more western publications should follow reposting this story originally published by western media. Eastern media too.

Awesome, thanks for sharing those links. The more the better!

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#102
post #58
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could make it harder and harder to use/own a car: more expensive, difficult to park, slower to use, etc. Then people would seek out other solutions by themselves, be it using a bike, public transport, or moving less (asking for more remote work options, for instance). We don't seem to even be trying to do this and it's depressing.

Perhaps don't advocate making good things in life shittier in order to make comparatively shit options you happen to approve of look good by comparison? If you want public transport to be an even barely acceptable alternative to cars: - Make it door to door, no connections, no hiking to or from a station/stop/port at either end - Make it on demand, no timetables or shortages - Make it actually show up, and not be sus…

> If you want alternatives to be more popular

I don't especially want alternatives to be more popular; I want less carbon and fewer cars. If that means making cars shittier (than they already are), then that's good in my book.

> Make it private, without the need to be crammed into a box with strangers

People who can't stand "strangers" should pay a special tax for being antisocial. Society is nothing if not sharing space with strangers.

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#103
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could make it harder and harder to use/own a car: more expensive, difficult to park, slower to use, etc. Then people would seek out other solutions by themselves, be it using a bike, public transport, or moving less (asking for more remote work options, for instance). We don't seem to even be trying to do this and it's depressing.

This is a matter of politics. Right now the majority of the population doesn't agree with your position. That's the problem you have to solve. The real difficulty there is that people are by nature concerned more about near-term, local events. If you try too hard to make their life more expensive and difficult, they'll just vote you out of power.

Agreed.

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#104

The article accuses greentech and carbon-credits of genocide: "While guaranteeing high returns, this deception is tantamount to the genocide of the hundreds of millions of people who will perish from the effects of climate change within the next century because things are that bad." That's pretty harsh. But, if you think "things are that bad," let's also consider the moral culpability of people trying to stop the sci…

Have you seen Dr. Gwynne Dyer: "Geopolitics in a Hotter World" (Sept. 2010) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc_4Z1oiXhY

Transcription: https://spaswell.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/dr-gwynne-dyer-geo...

At one point he talks about the possibility of unilateral geoengineering, and he mentions the head of the Bangladesh Institute of Strategic Studies...

- - - -

FWIW I figure that a technological "magic bullet" might save our bacon, and it's prudent to explore the options. (Personally I thought the olivine weathering seemed promising but I don't know if anything came of it, at least so far.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering

But I'm convinced by Václav Smil (among others) that the real solution will have to involve just not pulling up so much carbon from underground and putting it in the atmosphere.

Václav Smil at Driva Climate Investment Meeting 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkj_91IJVBk

He talks about how it would mean going back to a 1960's (USA) level of energy use per capita.

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#105
post #91

It's worth keeping in mind that Al Jazeera (as the state-funded news outlet of an extremely wealthy state that is built entirely and existentially on the sales of oil) may not be unbiased on this particular analysis.

> Vijay Kolinjivadi is a Writer with Earth Negotiations Bulletin, as well as a post-doctoral Fellow at the Institute of Development Policy (IOB) of the University of Antwerp. He is a U.S. national and has focused on assessing biodiversity and ecosystem service-based policies, especially ""payments for ecosystem services"" for the better part of a decade. Al Jazeera may not be unbiased, but it seems the author is not…

So he wrote the article for free?

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#106
post #38

> billions of dollars have been poured into big pharma, instead of public health and policies My biggest pet peeve is this idea that the human race or even some large swath (“investors”) are doing one thing instead of another. How does one “pour billions in to policies” anyways? How do investors investing in bigpharma in any way impact public health policy? It’s as if the author wants to take the entire human race as…

> My biggest pet peeve is this idea that the human race or even some large swath (“investors”) are doing one thing instead of another. How does one “pour billions in to policies” anyways? How do investors investing in bigpharma in any way impact public health policy?

You're asking these questions as if they're rhetorical, relying on the simplicity of the "One doesn't! They don't!" answer to get that answer which you want. But that's not the true answer, the true answer is just more complicated.

People are investing billions into getting policies passed (lobbyists) and implementing them (compliance, government contracting, etc.). These are multi-billion-dollar economies.

Big pharma affects drug policy through lobbying, drug pricing, choosing what drugs to research and make publicly available, etc.

> If the worst miscalculation you can point at the human race making is accidentally planting too many trees - well - I think the author is perhaps the myopic one!

The miscalculation being pointed out by the author is that we're paying fraudsters for environmental interventions like removing carbon from the atmosphere, and they aren't doing it.

Even if planting trees is a good, it's not the good we're paying them for and it's not getting the results we intended. And if you read the article with the intention of understanding it rather than with the intention of picking it apart, you might have noticed that it points out that the trees aren't even getting planted in many cases.

> Of course they immediately confuse other complex topics (wildfires bad is an extremely naive understanding of California!) so pulling apart any of this is hopeless.

"Wildfires bad" is an extremely naive understanding of this article. Perhaps pulling apart the article is only hopeless for you because you're trying to pull it apart without bothering to understand it.

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#107
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just a reminder that all this car infrastructure is max ~100 years old 100 years ago we had one third the population we have today. Undoing that kind of development in another 100 years is plausible, but I suspect the oil problem will have resolved itself around that time anyway. And installing the same size network of public transit is far more expensive than paving that many miles of roads. Vastly, incredibly, in…

> Vastly, incredibly, insurmountably more expensive. I don't know why you chose to exaggerate here, but rail lines are +/- the same cost per mile as interstate highway, and that's without the economies-of-scale benefit that comes from there being 100x the number of interstate miles. They're also vastly cheaper in terms of materials; the cost is mainly not materials. Concrete production is also extremely CO2 and energ…

The best case is that running diesel trains along all the interstate routes would be cheaper than the interstates themselves. I'll give you that, it is probably true (or close enough).

But the vehicle I use on the rails has to stay on rails, and the cost of running rails becomes significantly more expensive as density increases. Politically and economically both. And can you replace every last paved road in America with rails? No, of course not, so you still have some kind of road network. Which brings us back full circle to why people like interstates to begin with.

Systemic energy efficiency is one very simplistic measure of a transportation network. And I would argue the least important.

Though I would love to hear a description of your utopian transportation system. Assuming it doesn't rely too heavily on a wholesale redesign of lifestyle preferences (e.g. "everyone lives in a skyscraper" is kind of a non-starter).

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Doesn't make sense" is excessively vague. Are you implying that solar in Europe doesn't reach carbon neutrality due to its lower insolation? Because based on raw photons, a panel that is carbon neutral in 3 years in a sunny place would be carbon neutral in 6 years in a setting with 1/2 the sunlight.. These critiques and the silly book's premise that since solar/wind might not break even from an embodied carbon stand…

It's not silly if all there's to argue from the other point of view is photons per square meter. Weather also plays a role. I don't mean to say I have the absolute truth, I want to see if they've even considered sun availability for different regions. It seems solar proponents really haven't analyzed it from that point of view, AFAIK.

As far as you know, solar proponents haven't analyzed sun availability in the regions that they're installing solar? Perhaps they have done the analysis and that's why they're spending billions of dollars installing them? The industry has seen something like 75% decreases in cost-per-watt installation costs in the past decade, I can assure you, they're doing the analysis.

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#109

The very premise of modern environmentalism necessitates human extinction by logical extension. You can't act or believe as if humans can or should have no impact on the environment without entertaining humanity's gradual demise as part of the process of "saving the earth" when all other known options are exhausted.

There's, uh, a large middle ground between "no humans, zero impact" and "so much impact that we're altering global weather patterns".

Re: We are ‘greening’ ourselves to extinction

#110
post #8
post #5

Climate change has only one priority: stop releasing carbon into the atmosphere. We're all dead if we don't and we cannot afford to add one tiny extra burden onto that monumental task. Sorry. The alternative is death for us all and no chance of any justice ever.

This is like saying "weight loss has only one priority; eat less food and exercise more". Of course, but people simply won't. So what do we do?

We must only do what is absolutely critical to get benefit. The developed world will have to help the rest with technology but IMO the developing world should not be sitting there waiting for help.

A lot of the money is going to have to be spent in the first world ... first to get the technology down in cost but there are existing technologies that developing countries can use now and it should be in their budgets instead of paying for their oversized army or paying ghost salaries to government workers who are all relatives of the minister. I mean these countries will need to act with a discipline and honesty that they are unaccustomed to. We need to get their populations worked up to demand it. (I am from Zimbabwe which is why this bugs me)

To pretend that some people are going to entirely take care of others is demotivating and wrong. Most of us are going to have to take strain.

We are also going to have to de-emphasise NIMBY and other concerns that aren't absolutely critical that might block our investments in clean energy.

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