Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power • Hacker News Board

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#101

Post by soiler » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

noorkersz wrote: post #21

rmorey wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Union-busting, NDA’s, restricting new slack channels, non-competes - all the usual ways!

This response just turns my question into: why haven't the usual ways been sufficient for the rest of the tech companies? why are the usual ways still sufficient for apple but not for the others???

I think it's not as simple as "action x => result y". it's a messy art more than a science. Apple is trying x, y, and z. Google tried a, b, and c. Both companies have different circumstances, different employees, different shareholder mandates, etc. And of course every CEO would like to be the one who solves Industry-Wide Problem in the best way (less public backlash, more savings, whatever your metric is)

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#102

Post by msmenardi » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

kilgnad wrote: post #84

Phlarp wrote: post #20

Guess tech workers should have unionized when they had the chance. As if capital was going to let the most powerful group of workers that's ever existed continue to slip their noose

On a side note I feel we can take Unionization into the tech world as a start up or an App. Imagine a blind-esque App that just allows everyone participating to vote anonymously for a union. Then AFTER a union is official then leaders and instigators could reveal themselves or maybe there were no leaders or instigators the whole thing was p2p. I feel something as easy and convenient as blind can allow "unions in limb…

There should be forums or something where people can contribute to discussions and create a community. How are they supposed to vote for representatives if there's no way to know who other people are?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#103

Post by echelon » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

kilgnad wrote: post #47

Phlarp wrote: post #20

Guess tech workers should have unionized when they had the chance. As if capital was going to let the most powerful group of workers that's ever existed continue to slip their noose

In the last decade or so, there were several times I brought this up on HN (anonymously), and each time my opinion was attacked as not making any sense. Times change.

Short term is still good for engineers:

- The economics of supply and demand will swing back to software engineers in the short term, because there aren't enough of us to power every tech company's product roadmap on their desired timeline.

- Laid off workers will start new companies that will threaten the companies that laid them off.

- The macro environment will swing back eventually to favor fast growth.

Long term is bad [1], though:

- Tech is going global. Europe, Latin America, India, the rest of Asia, and emerging economies all over the world are raising venture capital and hiring substantially cheaper local talent. These companies will put downwards economic pressures on US companies' unlimited growth stories, worldwide monopoly statuses, and thus their ability to pay lavish salaries.

- Also, a broader global talent pool will put downward pressures on salaries.

- Much more hypothetical, but the emergence of AI tools could put additional pressure on engineers. It's unclear how much or to what extent, but it could be a big impact.

[1] Tech going worldwide is fantastic for workers in growing economies. They'll quickly move up the socioeconomic ladder, and that's a good thing. As long as AI doesn't eat their lunch first.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#104

Post by theptip » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

I just don’t buy it. To be clear this is claiming that the CEOs are sitting behind a desk stroking a cat, thinking “now I will crush the labor movement and make all my workers feel less secure”.

This is just not a problem that Pichai is facing.

Occam’s Razor points to the very simple, non-conspiratorial answer that it really is just stock-price driven (ie market-driven) thinking (one could say “lack of actual strategic thinking”). “The job of Alphabet is to provide solid growth in share price Q on Q for investors, with minimal fluctuations to spook them”, seems a more likely thing for CEOs to be saying, after hearing this from their CFOs.

The idea that Google would struggle as hard as it did to meet its aggressive hiring goals over the last few years, then axe strong engineers just to make others scared, really stretches my credulity.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#105

Post by mypastself » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:21 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #70

giantg2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the union solve in this specific instance? Tech has had high pay gor a long time, mostly due to cheap money. If the cheap money goes away, how do they pay these inflated salaries? Overall, I think unions can be good because you have clear terms defined in a contract. That provides a more fair environment when it comes to worker treatment, calibration, etc. But I don't see it helping with pay in most cases,…

Nothing to do with cheap money, tech companies are some of the most profitable and revenue efficient companies in history.

A lot of them are now back to their early-2020 headcounts. Did they hire just so they could fire those same workers a couple of years later and thus “bring them to heel”, or did they overextend themselves by all the easy credit, and are now reversing course?

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#106

Post by irrational » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

I’ve never worked for Big Tech, I’ve never even worked in one of the big tech hubs (Bay Area, anywhere in California, Seattle, Austin, NY, etc.), but I do have a hefty 6 figure salary because of the tech workers in those areas. My worry is my company will start to look at laying us off so they can replace us with laid off tech workers at a much lower rate.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#107

Post by sassyonsunday » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

Phlarp wrote: post #20

Guess tech workers should have unionized when they had the chance. As if capital was going to let the most powerful group of workers that's ever existed continue to slip their noose

Nobody saw an end to the good times in sight. I've hopped jobs about 5 times in my career and saw a 20-30% pay raise each time. What incentive existed to unionize in that environment? Unionization only makes sense if you think the good times won't last.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#108

Post by s1artibartfast » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:22 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #70

giantg2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the union solve in this specific instance? Tech has had high pay gor a long time, mostly due to cheap money. If the cheap money goes away, how do they pay these inflated salaries? Overall, I think unions can be good because you have clear terms defined in a contract. That provides a more fair environment when it comes to worker treatment, calibration, etc. But I don't see it helping with pay in most cases,…

Nothing to do with cheap money, tech companies are some of the most profitable and revenue efficient companies in history.

I don't think unions bring anything to the table for Tech workers that can't be done without one.

Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#109

Post by arcticbull » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #108

arcticbull wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing to do with cheap money, tech companies are some of the most profitable and revenue efficient companies in history.

I don't think unions bring anything to the table for Tech workers that can't be done without one. Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.

> Us workers already have Universal protections and job security while striking even if they're not in a union.

No need for sick time, huh. Mat leave, pat leave. Generally US worker protections are some of the weakest in the developed world. So yeah I mean it's possible that these can be achieved without unionization, they definitely haven't been. A lot of those protections you allude to were actually obtained because of unions.

The weekend, and not locking workers in leading to them burning to death in downtown New York are all thanks to organized labor. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Re: Big Tech is using layoffs to crush worker power

#110

Post by roncesvalles » Mon, Jan 30, 2023, 4:23 PM UTC

alonsonic wrote: post #88

noorkersz wrote: post #2

follow up question, why hasn't apple needed to do this? how are they keeping 'tabs' on 'worker power'?

Maybe the answer is that no one is trying to "keep tabs on worker power" and the decision is primarily driven by financial reasons? Cheap money had to be spent in an inflationary economy, money is more expensive now with higher rates and thus companies that ramped up spending too fast need to cut costs. Apple did not hire as many people during the pandemic so they don't have as much pressure.

I never really understood the cheap money argument. Big tech doesn't need to take on debt to expand, so why would it matter what the interest rate is?

I also don't understand the notion of "overhiring". Tech doesn't just hire people without having anything lined up for them to do. At least not en masse.