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Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

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101–110 of 177 posts

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

I've been called a bitch to my face during architectural debates. I've had responses to my technical comments come back as "whatever, sudo make me a sandwich". Been asked while doing interviews, "Oh wait you're not HR?" I've gone to many presentations contain sexist images, etc. Throughout my career I've been constantly had to deal with implications that I don't belong - and that my opinions can be dismissed.. Yet, s…

Trust me I try....but being a nerd and a racial minority it is hard to keep a straight mind when nine out of ten women look the other way when you try to approach them to start a conversation.

I dont think you have been in a situation where "Can I buy you a drink" is replied with a "you're ugly ...go away".

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#102

This footnote drew my interest: Although female programmers are rare now, that wasn't the case in the 70's. That shift is another argument against the natural balance hypothesis. I am too young to know, but is this the experience of others as well? Again, this is based purely on anecdotal experience, but I wonder if women programmers tend to concentrate into particular industries (for whatever reason). My wife was a…

http://rarlindseysmash.com/images/entries/degrees.png This is a graph that shows the percent of women receiving degrees in each field - you'll notice that there is a peak and then a sudden drop off for computer science. Though, for actual numbers in the 1970's a lot of programmers in general weren't getting CS degrees.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#103

This footnote drew my interest: Although female programmers are rare now, that wasn't the case in the 70's. That shift is another argument against the natural balance hypothesis. I am too young to know, but is this the experience of others as well? Again, this is based purely on anecdotal experience, but I wonder if women programmers tend to concentrate into particular industries (for whatever reason). My wife was a…

Back in the day I think the popular perception of programmers was kind of an extension of a secretary (it's just typing on toggle panels instead of a typewriter, right?) so there were lots of women stuck in secretarial positions who tried it out.

...and those secretaries were good at it. And so were the women math PhDs who could not get jobs elsewhere. And so were the women who had female mentors, and therefore failed to be chased away. All of which dumps water on the "innate abilities" trope that people keep bringing up as the null hypothesis which must be disproved, instead of the claim which requires proof.

It genuinely weirds me out how many white males in tech see no conflict or even feel a shiver of historical echoes when they argue the premise that they (white men) are intrinsically genetically gifted in ways which other groups are not, and that is why they are superior (at technology). Every other time it has ever been argued, it has been false.

Unless the argument was that white men are better at the combination of having penises, privilege, and low amounts of melanin --- we have that hat trick down.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#104

I feel like this imbalance is going to correct itself over the coming decades. As people become more connected, and are introduced to computers at a younger age, the diversity of those interested in them to the point of wanting to work with them as a career will increase. The stereotype of the white pasty male computer nerd is vanishing. With it is the pressure for those who don't fit that stereotype to choose a diff…

The overall trend right now shows the opposite: http://rarlindseysmash.com/images/entries/degrees.png

this isn't an issue that is going to self correct and people trying to take steps to remedy a problem should not be lambasted by the community.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#106
post #35
post #10

I don't get this. Maybe it's because I'm a white male, but it still doesn't make sense to me. Why is there such a resistance to the idea that there might be differences in what groups of people are interested in at any given time? Not an issue of genetics or competence, but a complicated web of social influences that make people less likely to be interested in one path or the other? If there are truly unjust and disc…

I have similar thoughts. But also, it bothers me that the imbalances in tech are considered to be somehow more pathological or worse than the imbalances that exist in all kinds of other professions. We seem to be the only profession flogging ourselves over this issue (I'm sure there are some others, but I doubt there are many). Are people in nursing worried about the field underperforming as a whole because it has so…

This is absolutely 100% not true. You may not be familiar with fields like nursing or dietetics but there is an equally imbalanced gender distribution in both those fields that skews the other way.

Both fields are concerned and do talk about ways they can address the imbalance (and act in limited capacities).

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#107
post #85

Also: This sentiment that women should be interested in programming jobs, but aren't because they've been damaged by the patriarchy in some way, and now it's up to (predominantly) men to fix this for them - strikes me as a bit sexist. We could potentially take the Avatar/Dances With Wolves approach. A really awesome superstar male programmer could start dressing in drag and lead female programmers to victory. Or at l…

It's up to everyone in the community to fix this. No matter what their sex or race. It's just a matter of being a more open and welcoming community.

I'm sure there are fellow female (and other minority) programmers reading the comments on this article feeling completely unwelcome in the programming community.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#108
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are artificial barriers, based on gender/race/class/whatever that make it marginally harder for some people to contribute. Can you provide an example of the barriers of which you speak? I find that a lot of the time I'm told about how people with qualities distinct from mine should be cut some slack or given extra incentives to get into industry to correct some sort of imbalance, and that the imbalance is som…

Can you provide an example of the barriers of which you speak? Here's a real-world example: A workplace where most of the (all-male) development team is using the same "bikini babe" screensaver. It's a small thing to a guy, something you may not even notice. It's a small thing to plenty of women, too. Some other women may see that as an implicit message that they aren't taken seriously as anything but a sex object. S…

Women getting their panties in a bunch about something as minor as that is the reason they aren't taken seriously in the workplace (to the extent they aren't, I mean).

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#109

I hate to pick apart Fowler -- probably a good way for folks to call me an idiot -- but I have to. here are (roughly) 50% women in the world, so we should expect the ratio for women in computing to be 50% - unless there's real evidence that some other ratio is natural.[2] So far there's no such evidence. But, er, doesn't the observation that the actual ratio is different evidence constitute "evidence"? Aside from dir…

Unless you indicate causation of biology, cultural evolution is inherently cheaper and faster than biological evolution. It should be the null hypothesis. Additionally, there is evidence against any biological explanation; that he doesn't feel the need to recite a huge body of evidence isn't a sign of anything other than hacker news commenters appears to be willing to talk about subjects they know nothing about.

Re: Martin Fowler: The Fallacies and Reprocussions of Diversity Imbalance

#110
post #57

It's fun to take apart the logic, rhetoric, and nitpick on every word of this post. We could argue the premise all day long -- and 5 years from now there will be fewer women, minorities, etc, than there are now. Instead I prefer to take constructive action to change this, without worrying if (1) it is natural or unnatural or (2) it would be better. I accept that the current state is unnatural and a more balanced popu…

While I disagree with your post, I think you make a peculiar error to which I am responding (and it is this error that is the source of my disagreement), and my post will only make sense in the context of this thread. Furthermore, I too am advocating for constructive change, just of a different sort. By adherence to what I see as the spirit of your request (discussing constructive action) I hope I may justify a lack of adherence to to the letter of your request.

What kind of constructive action am I advocating? Nothing less than to continue the argument, in the most charitable and reasonable spirit we can attain. We are arguing about the most important of things: our moral aim. That is, "what is it we ought to do?" Should we promote diversity in computing? Tied up with this question of aims is the question of facts, namely: "Does promoting the politically correct notion of diversity mean the same as promoting the kind of diversity which will make computing as a profession more capable at achieving its ends?" Certainly, if there is a kind of diversity that brings the profession of computing closer to its ends (whatever those may be, and that too is in question) then I imagine that promoting such diversity is considered wise by all here.

What is primarily in debate is whether or not politically correct diversity (diversity of gender and race, primarily) is the same as effective diversity. If, like you seem to think, both kinds of diversity are the same, then doing what you suggest is in fact constructive. However, if politically correct diversity is orthogonal or (Ada Lovelace forbid) contrary to effective diversity, then your actions will be at best ineffective and at worst destructive. The whole point of this argument is that we want our profession to do what is constructive, and recognize that we need to sort out as a profession what in fact is constructive.

Hacker News is a great place to have this kind of discussion since a) you have willing and able participants, and b) the clear tree structure of posts helps considerably since well-formed arguments all tend to take such a structure. There are other sites for discussing what "can/should be done (or what you are already doing)" for a particular agenda.

The attitude you give off in your post is one of "deeds, not words", which in my experience is equivalent to an attitude of "words, not thoughts". You are dealing with a crowd which is perhaps best known acting upon those beliefs of which they have been rationally convinced. Do you not agree that it is better for people to hold and act upon beliefs of which they have been convinced by means of reason? If so, why then do you speak so glibly of "tak[ing] apart the logic, rhetoric, and nitpick[ing] every word" which is nothing less then the process of analytic reasoning? If not, why are you here?

P.S. Note that I have not actually taken a stance on the issue in question in this post.

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