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Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

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Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#101

Post by zzzeek »

godelski wrote: post #78
zzzeek wrote: post #71

I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? if you are a highly paid technology worker, when you go to service establishments where people are working hourly and are desperate to work 40-50 hour weeks just to pay their rent and feed their kids, you *tip*. *generously*. the US has an insanely out of control income inequality issue that is very intractible and structural. If you are so fortunate as t…

I'd rather just increase the minimum wage. Why do this pick and choose thing? If the minimum is not enough then it isn't enough for __everyone__.

Well the federal minimum wage hasn't been increased in ... 14 YEARS. So...maybe tip in the meantime?

not to mention current legal frameworks allow workers who are tipped to be paid less than minimum wage. as well as some workers are undocumented and are victims of an obsolete immigration system that has not been fixed for decades due to political gridlock.

so maybe just TIP, at the very least.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#102

Post by justinpowers »

This may just be a side-effect of the insurgence of new POS systems and customer-facing systems.

Many of the newer POS systems were first developed with the hospitality industry in mind. In those cases, tipping is on by default. These POS systems have since expanded into retail and convenience stores, leaving tipping on by default. The shop owners have little incentive to turn it off, or may not even know how to turn it off.

Additionally most older POS systems were not operated by the customer and so did not display set percentages. They relied upon manual input based on a signed receipt. So percentage norms were mostly word-of-mouth. Nowadays, with customer-facing POS systems, it’s easier to just provide a percentage button. And the owner or manager or even the lowly register attendant, can adjust as needed. And of course, higher defaults are better for all of them (within reason).

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#103

Post by godelski »

tptacek wrote: post #76
godelski wrote: post #30

One thing I've never understood is the argument for tipping. It has always been "because servers are being paid less than minimum wage." Which the issue with that is that that varies state by state. Most west coast states do not have a separate tipped wage[0]. So the question is, why do we tip at all on the west coast[1]? Worse, it seems to be expanding and increasing in size[2] The followup argument is often "well t…

Tipping is a system in which customers explicitly, optionally, and variably share some of the cost of labor. It has the features of allowing individual patrons to modulate the labor subsidy they provide, based on their current price sensitivity, the value they place on warm fuzzies (don't dismiss this!), the relationship they want to build with the business, and the service they perceive themselves to be getting. You…

I disagree with this. I'm reading your claim as "you should pay people so they become your friends." There's plenty of stores I've been regulars at that don't have a tipping system that I've become friendly with staff with. When I was a teenager and worked at movie theaters I became friendly with many regulars and tipping doesn't exist there. The warm fuzzies come from social interaction, face recognition, and being rememberable through your good/frequent business and friendliness. It feels wrong to suggest we should be buying them. That would just be confirming the bribery/feudal aspect of the system. I also don't think this helps those working non-tipped based jobs.

I don't want to abolish tipping, but instead I want to raise the minimum wage, make prices transparent (I am also a proponent of including tax in price listings), and making not tipping socially acceptable. If we have to supplement wages with tips then our economic system is broken (and akin to feudalism). If you want to provide an extra reward or explicitly bribe an employee for faster/better service (or to flex your wealth), I have no qualms.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#104

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

godelski wrote: post #50
adam_arthur wrote: post #6

Given that even retail stores have added tipping prompts to their checkouts, I'd say yes. Plus many restaurants with placeholder tip icons that start at 25%+ You also don't know what the tip is really going towards in many cases. In the classic restaurant/waitstaff case you can reasonably expect it to go to the workers, in the random knick knack or general goods stores ??? Tipping in general is a system to transfer w…

Tipping at best is a form of bribery and at worst a feudal practice of wealth transfer. I tip because it is the social norm (and bribery: don't want my food messed with), but I think we can also acknowledge that this practice is weird and has a shaky history.

> don't want my food messed with

If someone has the mentality that they are free to spoil your food because they won't get a (good) tip, then they don't deserve to be paid at all, let alone be tipped well.

There's a lot of things the US has that are extremely strange, and the tipping culture is amongst them.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#105

Post by seizethecheese »

Fauntleroy wrote: post #55
seizethecheese wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing should be outlawed unless it causes a reasonable amount of harm. This mostly doesn’t. First, it’s just semantics. Second, you don’t have to buy again.

The tipping system causes harm.

It causes a minimal amount of harm. What proportion of the tip requests you get are from your first time buying from the establishment? It’s very low. After that, you know there’s a tip request and choose to return.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#106

Post by MuffinFlavored »

godelski wrote: post #30

One thing I've never understood is the argument for tipping. It has always been "because servers are being paid less than minimum wage." Which the issue with that is that that varies state by state. Most west coast states do not have a separate tipped wage[0]. So the question is, why do we tip at all on the west coast[1]? Worse, it seems to be expanding and increasing in size[2] The followup argument is often "well t…

> The followup argument is often "well they are still being under paid." While I can buy this argument, I do not think the solution is tipping

The alternative is getting a restaurant to entirely change its identity.

Their POS system will always have a spot for tip on a receipt.

Their prices are based on the fact that they expect customers to tip the servers at least 15-25%.

It's a monumental change. It's not just "pay the servers at least $15/hr and turn off tipping". Nobody I've ever met who waits tables is happy with $120/night out the door pretax ($15/hr * 8)

For a restaurant to pay a server what they make now ($150-$300/night tips), their labor cost would be through the roof and they would have to raise the price of the food.

The customer wouldn't like that.

Lose lose lose.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#107

Post by zzzeek »

tmnvix wrote: post #91
zzzeek wrote: post #71

I can't believe these comments, what is wrong with you people? if you are a highly paid technology worker, when you go to service establishments where people are working hourly and are desperate to work 40-50 hour weeks just to pay their rent and feed their kids, you *tip*. *generously*. the US has an insanely out of control income inequality issue that is very intractible and structural. If you are so fortunate as t…

I live in a place without a tipping culture and significant income inequality. I really don't like the idea that service in a bar might be prioritised according to who gives the biggest tips. That seems like highlighting inequality to me. It would go down very badly here. A queue is a queue. Queues are fair.

ive never heard of servers or bartenders doing that. they are pretty good here about being fair to people.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#108

Post by godelski »

Larrikin wrote: post #86
tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is a system in which customers explicitly, optionally, and variably share some of the cost of labor. It has the features of allowing individual patrons to modulate the labor subsidy they provide, based on their current price sensitivity, the value they place on warm fuzzies (don't dismiss this!), the relationship they want to build with the business, and the service they perceive themselves to be getting. You…

The existence of restaurants, barber shops, delivery services, all over the world in first world and developing countries indicates it's possible to run a business successfully without relying on charity or variable pricing models.

To specifically counter Tp's claims, I think we should note that these services also have plenty of friendly relationships between employees and customers.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#109

Post by detaro »

purpleblue wrote: post #92
boomchinolo78 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Who is harmed? Are we to pretend all waiters do an equally good job? Good service gets good tips, bad service, not good. It's just an incentive system. The only reason it starts to breakdown is because there are really cheap people out there who will skimp on the tip and then complain when waiters treat them like shit. If you are a regular at a place and you tip well, they'll spoil you.

Most places in the world do not have tipping. The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage. I think that tipping should be outlawed and waiters should be paid a wage supported by the market, at least whatever minimum wage is (in California, that's $15.50/hr).

> The US has tipping because for some reason, the law allows restaurants to pay below minimum wage

Tipping predates minimum wage laws. (indeed the first laws to ban tipping in the US also predate minimum wage laws, but it clearly didn't stick)

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