Official Warning: Zero3K • Hacker News Board

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#101

Post by aidenn0 » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:49 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #90

Blackthorn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what do you think happens when you make yourself lost contact with these people? Well, having been 'compartmentalized' earlier in life and never receiving any help or social training, they continue to perpetually abuse other people. It's really not his or her job to fix abusers.

>It's really not his or her job to fix abusers. most societies believe that each individual must contribute to some degree. It's being lost, but for most societies historically the mentally ill were the burden of the immediate family. Now we see the effects of the mental illness affecting society-at-large, it stands to reason that the entirety of the affected population is now somewhat responsible for making their ow…

> If I walked past litter on the ground in my home-town, I wouldn't say "Hey, not my job." and walk past it, I would pick it up for the betterment of my town.

If for 3 years I am constantly picking up litter as fast as other residents throw it on the ground, at what point to I just move to as different town where people litter less?

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#102

Post by aidenn0 » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:52 AM UTC

serf wrote: post #76

Waterluvian wrote: post #27

There are some people that are so divergent from understanding and being able to perform or at least emulate normal social behaviour that they become harmful and problematic. I watched one, quite closely, develop through high school. I can still hear his smug “nah” any time you said something he didn’t agree with. Well, not “agree with” but “that he knew to be universally correct.” Ultimately he ended up unemployable…

>I think what I learned from the experience is at some point you’ve got to compartmentalize harmful people from your groups and inevitably a growing number of segments of society, even if that feels wrong in some way. It’s more wrong to let them perpetually abuse people. this strikes me as similar to the concept of being for life imprisonment over the spending of resources towards rehabilitation. To throw people to t…

If someone slaps you in the face every time you meet them, how many times are you obligated to correct them before you decide you don't want to be slapped in the face anymore?

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#103

Post by shadowgovt » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:53 AM UTC

2h wrote: post #75

shadowgovt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But also, doxxing is totally acceptable to protect people from threats including harassment. We are well past the era where we maintained the fantasy that the internet was separate from real life. People who are acting out online sometimes also act dangerous IRL and it is therefore prudent to figure out who they are IRL if they've proven to be bad actors online.

no, this is not acceptable. If you have an issue with someone online, ban their email, ban their IP and move on. It is not appropriate to go hunting this person in real life. you yourself have then become the creep, the person acting inappropriately. you've become the very person you have issue with. to anyone reading this, DO NOT listen to the person I am replying to. Even if this extreme case seems "justified", its…

Slippery slope is absolutely a risk. Claims that a person transgressed should not be taken lightly.

... but in the presence of persistent harassment that will not cease online, tying the behavior to the person behind the behavior and bringing proper consequences to bear is the only regulatory system that actually works. There's a reason that you can be fined or imprisoned for trying to pull crap like that IRL.

But I am sorry that you were falsely accused. That is a possibility (both in doxxing attempts and in more "traditional" harassment).

False accusation is entirely possible, but it doesn't imply we just let harassers get on unchecked.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#104

Post by shadowgovt » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:56 AM UTC

2h wrote: post #88

notatoad wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, this whole idea that "doxxing" is a universal harm needs to be corrected. not exposing people's real-world identities is a courtesy we obey to protect each other from harassment. if it becomes a way to protect the harassers, then we've lost the point. nobody has a natural right to anonymity, and if your actions are causing real harm then you should expect some of the real-world consequences that come from havin…

> nobody has a natural right to anonymity is this a joke? https://epic.org/issues/democracy-free-speech/anonymity

No, it is not.

In fact, the opposite right (the right to face one's accuser) is enshrined Constitutionally in the United States when we bring the force of law to bear on a citizen.

Anonymity has value in specific contexts. It is not a universal right in all contexts.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#105

Post by aidenn0 » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:57 AM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #27

There are some people that are so divergent from understanding and being able to perform or at least emulate normal social behaviour that they become harmful and problematic. I watched one, quite closely, develop through high school. I can still hear his smug “nah” any time you said something he didn’t agree with. Well, not “agree with” but “that he knew to be universally correct.” Ultimately he ended up unemployable…

We had something like that go down between two of our children; we had to tell the one who got the worst of it "if the only way to feel safe is to never be in the same room as them again, that's okay"

Forgiveness is one thing, but deliberately putting yourself in position to be victimized again is another.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#106

Post by shadowgovt » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 12:57 AM UTC

catiopatio wrote: post #98

notatoad wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, this whole idea that "doxxing" is a universal harm needs to be corrected. not exposing people's real-world identities is a courtesy we obey to protect each other from harassment. if it becomes a way to protect the harassers, then we've lost the point. nobody has a natural right to anonymity, and if your actions are causing real harm then you should expect some of the real-world consequences that come from havin…

Your position is effectively “it’s not harassment when we harass someone, because we’re not the harassers”. Doxxing is an escalation intended to cause real harm in the real world.

> Doxxing is an escalation intended to cause real harm in the real world

Correct. And is the necessary escalation when online-only tools have failed and the attacker will not relent (such as this circumstance, where the actor in question is taking active steps to bypass methods to down-sample their signal).

I'm assuming most people holding a position in this conversation aren't absolutists (for example, they recognize why the FBI honeypots / tricks people / subpoenas information to de-anonymize those suspected of crime). Is the issue which hands hold the power / take the step of de-anonymizing someone? If that is the issue, what is the recommend course of action in this scenario (which exceeds people's tolerance to continue to operate freely in the OSS community without harassment but does not meet the threshold of an FBI criminal investigation)?

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#107

Post by 2h » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 1:02 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #104

2h wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody has a natural right to anonymity is this a joke? https://epic.org/issues/democracy-free-speech/anonymity

No, it is not. In fact, the opposite right (the right to face one's accuser) is enshrined Constitutionally in the United States when we bring the force of law to bear on a citizen. Anonymity has value in specific contexts. It is not a universal right in all contexts.

trolling online is not a crime, so no crime, so no right to face anyone.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#108

Post by shadowgovt » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 1:03 AM UTC

2h wrote: post #86

Blackthorn wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no, this is not acceptable. If you have an issue with someone online, ban their email, ban their IP and move on Here's the thing: they did do that. But the banned person would not move on, and continued to evade the ban and be a pile of misery for everyone involved. "Ban them and move on" is the sort of advice that works great until it doesn't.

this is just more rationalizing. to justify doxxing, which is itself essentially stalking (or worse) should be a quite high bar, which hasn't been crossed, even in this situation. If the troll was threatening life or some other crime, then fine do what you need to do. but the person is just essentially being annoying, that is not grounds to doxx someone. if they do not have the skills to keep out harmful users, thats…

A captcha doesn't keep out harassing users; they're human, after all.

Changing the communications policy of the organization to only allow people a communications forum after they've been vetted might. That's a significant change that puts an OSS project at a severe disadvantage towards gathering support / interest. Also, it wouldn't even work in this situation; the actor in question proved willing to use every communications channel they could find to attack project volunteers.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#109

Post by 2h » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 1:04 AM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #103

2h wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, this is not acceptable. If you have an issue with someone online, ban their email, ban their IP and move on. It is not appropriate to go hunting this person in real life. you yourself have then become the creep, the person acting inappropriately. you've become the very person you have issue with. to anyone reading this, DO NOT listen to the person I am replying to. Even if this extreme case seems "justified", its…

Slippery slope is absolutely a risk. Claims that a person transgressed should not be taken lightly. ... but in the presence of persistent harassment that will not cease online, tying the behavior to the person behind the behavior and bringing proper consequences to bear is the only regulatory system that actually works. There's a reason that you can be fined or imprisoned for trying to pull crap like that IRL. But I…

> tying the behavior to the person behind the behavior and bringing proper consequences to bear is the only regulatory system that actually works

nope. trolling online is not a crime, so no regulations are needed. its the same as if someone walks up to you in real life and calls you a jerk. you dont get to do anything about that. you just move on.

Re: Official Warning: Zero3K

#110

Post by Lev1a » Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 1:05 AM UTC

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #96

I have mixed feelings on calling him out by name. It sounds like the person is going through tough times. This obsessive behaviour doesn't describe someone who's living a happy, fulfilling life. The bug reports might be his flawed way to reach out and be part of the community. I'm not arguing for people to enable his negative behaviour. I just wish there was another solution than the nuclear option: this public warni…

Continued harassment and stalker-like behavior over years with obviously no intention of stopping his behavior.

It seems to me issuing a public warning about this persons "paper trail" is probably the only real option to shut down this behavior that these OSS projects can see.