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Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

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Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#101

Post by triceratops »

phpisthebest wrote: post #63
cool_dude85 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a white collar union in the US and this has not been my experience at all. I don't "work for my union rep", the "highest rank in the union" wouldn't decide what happens in case of layoffs, very little is based on seniority. Sounds like you have a very warped idea of what union work is like.

I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority

Are you not familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild?

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#102

Post by toomuchtodo »

phpisthebest wrote: post #94
toomuchtodo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank goodness you only need a majority of votes to unionize.

History shows the result of that is often the highly productive staff exits for greener opportunities where they are not penalized for doing more than the minimum not to get fired, and over all the entire operation suffers leading to outsourcing or closing of facilities.

We wish them well! Are those greener pastures the vast majority of startups that fail? Or enormous agile, nimble enterprises I’ve heard so much about (he said with a hint of sarcasm)? Lying to others is one thing, but don’t lie to yourself. A vocal minority is best served by the status quo, and they’ll do fine as consultants. Unions to protect the majority (and the evidence very clearly demonstrates these workers need protection from management and capital), with opportunity for those who would rather not be protected.

The situation is not binary; it is a spectrum.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#103

Post by rattlesnakedave »

triceratops wrote: post #78
thunky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. Doesn't that make it a fair trade? Musicians generally don't make a killing either.

Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like your job doesn't come into it because it's random.

> We don't choose our talents nor our passions

You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#104

Post by Eumenes »

QA in gaming industry sounds ripe for AI/ML solutions ... Automated testing already exists, but couple AI/ML for QA with free beta testers or super fans, and you can prob eliminate QA departments, or at least cut them down sizably. From what I know, the QA folks in gaming get paid crappy anyway, so its prob not a huge priority for MSFT. This is just some feel good press.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#105

Post by cool_dude85 »

phpisthebest wrote: post #63
cool_dude85 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a white collar union in the US and this has not been my experience at all. I don't "work for my union rep", the "highest rank in the union" wouldn't decide what happens in case of layoffs, very little is based on seniority. Sounds like you have a very warped idea of what union work is like.

I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority

I suspect most white collar union work is more like mine. Seniority factors in in the sense that we get annual raises, and the more years you're around, the more annual raises you have received. But e.g. applying for internal jobs, getting OT or time off (as other comments have mentioned) seniority plays no role. Further, there are pay ranges for each job title, so it's quite common that a new hire into a more senior title is getting paid more than an old timer that for whatever reason is still in a more junior title.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#106

Post by cjbgkagh »

phpisthebest wrote: post #60
dmitriid wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If unions were effective I’d expect at least somewhat comparable wages… but that’s not the case. Because wage is all you care for. How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? And not just for software engineers, but for everyone? > that also means as a union worker you can’t work more and make more. You’re stuck with what the union negotiated. That al…

>>Because wage is all you care for. yes.. >>How about: maternity leave, paid sick leave, child support, paid vacation days, wage protections, etc. etc.? I have no children, I will never have children, and I rarely get sick, and I hate to travel so none of that matters to me. I am forced by my employer to take the vacation I do get, and my "vacation" is me sitting around my house doing chores or gaming which I do with…

Forced vacations are usually to uncover fraud and maybe key man risk. Lots of places without unions do this.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#107

Post by triceratops »

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #103
triceratops wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you think that's fair? We don't choose our talents nor our passions. You should get a decent share of however much value you create. How much you like your job doesn't come into it because it's random.

> We don't choose our talents nor our passions You choose your job, though. I'm not overly passionate about what I do, but do it for the stress:compensation ratio.

That's exactly my point. There are people who do the same job as you and love it. They may not even feel stress. Should they be paid less than you?

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#108

Post by 411111111111111 »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #73
jkingsbery wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm assuming by football you mean American football) It's not really a fair comparison. The NFL is a monopoly, so there is no way for athletes to vote with their feet. At various times in the past, in order to negotiate the NFLPA has had to decertify in order to sue the league. The NFL is also not a good proxy, because the average career for an NFL player is 2-3 years, and it is a physically dangerous job.

The analogy works with European soccer as well though, which isn't as much of a monopoly (given that the European model isn't franchise based).

Soccer does have a pretty big difference though: it isn't particularly dangerous and there are players that participate for a decade and more. That's also why it's not as centralized... Players aren't quiet as endangered when entering, so they're likely more willing to participate in games with smaller payouts.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#109

Post by malfist »

bigbillheck wrote: post #34
habibur wrote: post #14

"MS workers" here are 300 QA testers from MS's game division. I was worried whether their core developers were unionizing or not. Not yet. Not even the game developers.

It's still a good start!

Got to start somewhere!

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#110

Post by patja »

yakattak wrote: post #4

Game companies need this. It’s one of the “software engineering” adjacent subfields that is extremely exploited. The salaries are low, the work is stressful, crunch is high. The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. This is good, I hope the employees at ActivisionBlizzard can finalize their union if they’re purchased by Microsoft.

I am curious about the use of the word "adjacent"

Do you think people writing game software are not software engineers?

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