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Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

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Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#101

Post by megaman821 »

delecti wrote: post #87
brk wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the crypto mining dying off should free up a lot of grid resources for EVs. I've heard the "grid can't handle all EVs" statement, but have not seen anything backing up the claim. I believe the grid can in fact handle EVs becoming prevalent. We might need more power generation , which could be new plants, and/or residential solar. Baring some kind of crazy legislation requiring ICE vehicles to be crushed or perman…

The global energy usage from crypto was in the ballpark of 120-240 TWh/year, but a couple figures repeated the specific 150 TWh/year figure, so I'll use that. The US's annual gasoline consumption is 135 bn gallons (2021 figure). At around 20 mpg (random estimate because I have to pick something), that works out to 2.7 trillion miles. At 30 kWh/100mi (figure from google), that works out 800 TWh if every gas vehicle in…

If it is only 20% more generation, that seems pretty feasible. The widespread usage of air conditioners caused a greater increase in electricity usage than that.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#102

Post by toolslive »

teekert wrote: post #27
theshrike79 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

I live in the Netherlands and we're almost there! ;) No not really but, when it peaked I saw 2.40 eur/litre (9.71$/gallon, now down to 1.80 eur/litre) in places... Of course, much of that is taxes, but hey, this stuff would receive a lot of subsidies. Fwiw, I once (4 years ago or so?) spoke to someone from an ICE conference (a parallel conference to my breast cancer conference) who explained that ICE's can be made 10…

Yes, but that price is not determined by cost. It's determined by taxes.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#104

Post by pfdietz »

marcus0x62 wrote: post #49
pfdietz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies have made drop-in compatible jet fuel from biomass. https://www.virent.com/

Does that work with the process described in the article, can it be done at scale, how much does it cost? While I hear about a couple of these breakthrough alternate fuels a year, I’ve yet to see a single one that doesn’t fall down on at least one of those areas. The first one isn’t a deal-killer — you could have an alternate fuel product for petrol and a different one for fuel oils, but if they can’t be made economi…

I don't know what the process in the article is, so I cannot answer that question.

We can conclude the Virent process is not competitive at current prices (or else it would be done more widely.) The more relevant question is would it be cheap enough to work in a world without fossil fuel net CO2 emission. It would have to be cheaper than obtaining the fuel from oil, followed by direct air capture and sequestration of CO2, for zero net emission.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#106

Post by elif »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #73
elif wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's not CO2 neutral. It just didn't come from dinosaurs, it's still a long hydrocarbon that burns.

What timeline for CO2 neutrality will satisfy you? The fuel in TFA game from ag-waste. So presumably it's carbon neutral on a ~1-2yr timeline.

CO2 neutrality does not make sense in the context of a timeline. it is a mathematical rate, positive being an increase in the atmospheric reservoir and negative being a decrease in the atmospheric reservoir.

No amount of time producing "nearly neutral" increases to the atmospheric reservoir will produce an improvement in runaway existing CO2 feedback loops.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#107

Post by djmips »

elif wrote: post #78
marcus0x62 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The usual theory here is that fuels made from plants are carbon neutral in that while the fuel produces CO2 when burned, the plant it was made from consumed an equivalent amount of CO2 while alive. (Which, even if true ignores particulate and NOX emissions. See also: green washing.)

"made from plants" will need a citation. The Porsche/Exxon syn fuel uses natural gas as it's feedstock, for instance. I'm pretty sure the Mazda pr guy was just smart enough to omit that detail, not that they are hiding it's magical eco friendly origins.

This other press release from Mazda's fuel supplier doubles down on the agricultural waste talking point. In this case 'straw' was used to create ethanol which was the feedstock.

https://coryton.com/lab/articles/the-opportunity-for-sustain...

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#108

Post by b34r »

sbaiddn wrote: post #95
fsh wrote: post #39

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it. However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Bein…

When you consider the limited availability of batteries, electric vehicles don't make sense compared to hybrid ones. Neither make sense compared to halving our speed limits.

“For the first time I can remember, we can access all the supply we need for both businesses.” Martin Viecha, Tesla IR, September 2022

https://electrek.co/2022/09/12/tesla-access-all-the-batterie...

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#109

Post by mulmen »

mfer wrote: post #51
i_am_proteus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels. Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used. I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale wel…

The cost to transition away from fossil fuels isn’t really talked about much. For example, our electric grid can’t handle everyone using electric cars. Everything from electricity production to distribution needs to be upgraded. There is a massive cost to that.

Sounds like an opportunity to me. Think of the jobs.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#110

Post by davewritescode »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #72
xnzakg wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention leaded fuel still being a thing in aviation

Not anymore. You need to update your talking points. The FAA got off their butts and approved the unloaded substitute in 2022 and it's starting to roll out. Airports want it ASAP because the (IIRC) ~20% higher cost is a cheap price to pay to not have to listen to people complain.

Avgas 100LL is going to be around for a good long period of time. Not a single local airport around me locally has rolled out the new fuel yet so I’m not sure I believe your point about airports wanting it ASAP
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