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The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

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Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#101

Post by yucky »

labster wrote: post #89
yucky wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christianity forbids usury as well I don't believe this is correct. Admittedly I'm agnostic though, so I may be mistaken. But I've studied the subject quite a bit as an outsider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury#Christianity It sure looks like direct words from Jesus to me, not to expect anything in return for a loan. It’s just that Christian culture chose to ignore this rule in exchange for capitalism and colonialism.

That doesn't at all read as being forbidden. It reads like Jesus giving advice to people to give freely and not expect anything return. Not seeing any Thou Shalt Not's or other sternly worded proclamations. Which is probably why all of their early church councils were split on the subject. As opposed to stealing, killing, adultery etc. which everyone was in agreement on based on the scripture.

Contrast that with the usury wordings in Islamic scripture where it is treated essentially the same as stealing, and it's not worded as a friendly suggestion but rather a strict proclamation. Those differences in scripture make it clear why the different religions see it so differently.

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#102

Post by geye1234 »

yucky wrote: post #85
motohagiography wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity forbids usury as well, hence why hawala seemed like a plausible candidate system for how the Templar banking system may have scaled. Interest calculations are complicated, where something simple like a commission scales easily. Given what we know now about economics and how systems scale, it seems like there is a systems view of the necessary conditions that might shed some new light on some history that…

> Christianity forbids usury as well I don't believe this is correct. Admittedly I'm agnostic though, so I may be mistaken. But I've studied the subject quite a bit as an outsider.

Catholicism teaches that usury is morally evil and therefore always wrong. 'Usury' means taking any amount of interest on a full-recourse loan (ie a loan where the collateral is not limited to a particular asset or set of assets -- so yes, it includes credit cards, student loans and most mortgages).

[O]ur Lord, according to Luke the evangelist, has bound us by a clear command that we ought not to expect any addition to the capital sum when we grant a loan. For, that is the real meaning of usury: when, from its use, a thing which produces nothing is applied to the acquiring of gain and profit without any work, any expense or any risk.

– Lateran V

[The following proposition is condemned as erroneous:] Since ready cash is more valuable than that to be paid, and since there is no one who does not consider ready cash of greater worth than future cash, a creditor can demand something beyond the principal from the borrower, and for this reason be excused from usury. – Various Errors on Moral Subjects (II), Pope Innocent XI by decree of the Holy Office, March 4, 1679 (Denzinger)

One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small; neither can it be condoned by arguing that the borrower is rich; nor even by arguing that the money borrowed is not left idle, but is spent usefully, either to increase one’s fortune, to purchase new estates, or to engage in business transactions. – Vix Pervenit, encyclical of Benedict XIV

More here if anyone's interested: https://tinyurl.com/2f6dkh5p

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#103

Post by dgb23 »

ace32229 wrote: post #92
dgb23 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> International banks have spearheaded an absolute explosion in global economic growth. I assumed it's the other way around. Economic growth comes from technical and cultural advancements. Banks are a symptom of that growth.

I disagree it is that clear-cut (including GP's inversion). Access to credit is essential to businesses and governments (and individuals).

Wasn't credit invented before banks were?

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#104

Post by dgb23 »

FredPret wrote: post #98
dgb23 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> International banks have spearheaded an absolute explosion in global economic growth. I assumed it's the other way around. Economic growth comes from technical and cultural advancements. Banks are a symptom of that growth.

Banks are a massively significant cultural innovation. I can pay someone in a different country by pressing a button and it's a reliable, robust system. In those days, it was a huge deal to be able to pay a merchant in France by giving gold, or even a paper representing ownership of gold, to a bank in England. Before, you had to send the money on a ship and hope for the best. International banks led to a massive expl…

Or is it advancements in communication technology that enables what you describe? What makes a bank an international bank?

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#105

Post by [deleted] »

eyko wrote: post #52
luxpir wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's where the term "salary" came from, if I'm not mistaken. Roman thing?

You're correct. Funny enough, this is also obscure knowledge even in e.g Spanish. We use the word salario (from latin salarium) which has the same meaning as in latin: words ending in -ario (lat: -arium) is used to denote association, like in templario (templar) or revolucionario (revolutionary). For some reason, however, nobody thinks of "salario" as something associated with salt (sal). I guess it's so strange in t…

[deleted]

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#106

Post by bazoom42 »

notakio wrote: post #53
chiefalchemist wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you know if the Templars charged interest? On the other hand, I believe I've read somewhere The Koran forbids charging interest. But perhaps I am mistaken?

They are also historically credited with inventing usury, so presumably yes. This describes the situation fairly accurately: https://thetemplarknight.com/2010/12/22/templar-usury/ Essentially, the Roman Catholic Church turned a blind eye to the Templars usury, largely because of the value provided by the Templars in enabling an endless stream of warriors for Christendom. They did set some arbitrary limits on the amou…

Surely they didn’t invent ursury if it was already forbidden by mosaic law?

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#108

Post by yucky »

geye1234 wrote: post #102
yucky wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Christianity forbids usury as well I don't believe this is correct. Admittedly I'm agnostic though, so I may be mistaken. But I've studied the subject quite a bit as an outsider.

Catholicism teaches that usury is morally evil and therefore always wrong. 'Usury' means taking any amount of interest on a full-recourse loan (ie a loan where the collateral is not limited to a particular asset or set of assets -- so yes, it includes credit cards, student loans and most mortgages). [O]ur Lord, according to Luke the evangelist, has bound us by a clear command that we ought not to expect any addition…

It looks like the Catholics don't consider any interest to be usurious, only excessive interest (which leaves a lot of wiggle room).

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#109

Post by zdragnar »

yucky wrote: post #108
geye1234 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catholicism teaches that usury is morally evil and therefore always wrong. 'Usury' means taking any amount of interest on a full-recourse loan (ie a loan where the collateral is not limited to a particular asset or set of assets -- so yes, it includes credit cards, student loans and most mortgages). [O]ur Lord, according to Luke the evangelist, has bound us by a clear command that we ought not to expect any addition…

It looks like the Catholics don't consider any interest to be usurious, only excessive interest (which leaves a lot of wiggle room).

That's directly contradicting the Pope:

> One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive

from the parent comment

Re: The Knights Templar started London's first bank (2017)

#110

Post by acchow »

dgb23 wrote: post #86
FredPret wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International banks have spearheaded an absolute explosion in global economic growth. Looking at your story above, Philip was the bad actor and the Templars should've played politics better (maybe lending money to the pope as well?)

> International banks have spearheaded an absolute explosion in global economic growth. I assumed it's the other way around. Economic growth comes from technical and cultural advancements. Banks are a symptom of that growth.

> Economic growth comes from technical and cultural advancements.

At the frontier (fully developed economies operating at the current max GDP per capita).

For developing economies, it is just expanding our existing technological advancements into their systems

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